Parmenion Posted May 20, 2003 Report Posted May 20, 2003 A moon and a sun, A worshipping man, An Order, disciples, A golden ram. Execution of others, Not of the same, An ark with a drunkard, Who saved those that came. An emperor, a leader, A spreading wave, A man who was dead, Removed from his grave. A crusade for a land, A jihad that was sworn, Two decimated peoples, War tired and torn. An inquisition of thinkers, Burning books, causing strife, In a moment in history, When disease was rife. A collar, a priest, A whimpering boy, A milky face, A grunt of joy. A controlling power, A force to these days, A changing of thoughts, Their secrets portrayed. A rape of our justice, Their hands were in all, The ruining of lives, How had they the gall?
smallscale_mind_games Posted May 20, 2003 Report Posted May 20, 2003 *The slightly freaked sick person waves from a corner* So very scathing! Me likes!
autumn_sun Posted May 20, 2003 Report Posted May 20, 2003 =the other slightly sick freak in the other corner grins and nods= I like it!! ^^ Better not let the pope see this...heh
smallscale_mind_games Posted May 20, 2003 Report Posted May 20, 2003 Yeah, he'll come after you with his...pope army
Guest squashai Posted May 20, 2003 Report Posted May 20, 2003 Yeah, he'll come after you with his...pope army Um.. You're probably thinking about Bizzaro Pope, aren't you?
Parmenion Posted May 20, 2003 Author Report Posted May 20, 2003 This is just one side to it amplified, it has many other sides some of which are very helpful to people. I picked a side to write about from an aloof viewpoint that is rarely discussed. *Disclaimer to any Christians who may be offended, that is not the intention at all*
Sorciere Posted May 20, 2003 Report Posted May 20, 2003 I like it (I know, not very 'helpful', but I can't think what else to say right now)
Gyrfalcon Posted May 21, 2003 Report Posted May 21, 2003 Parmenion- While your poem is correct in its portrayal of the bad points of the Christian faith, it comes off as something of an attack on Christianity as you seem to ignore all the good that Christians have done. Whether it be Mother Teresa or simply the many members of the Christian faith who seek to do something to help the communities they live in, the entire Christian faith is not evil. That is not to say that Christians can do no wrong, simply that they can also do much good, like all of humanity.
The Portrait of Zool Posted May 21, 2003 Report Posted May 21, 2003 Of course there've been more than a few controversial literary works here at the Pen, though this is a subject that probably hits a larger proportion of members than most. Very well concieved and articulated Parmenion, though I think all members need to show consideration for their fellow members sensitivites, without sacrificing creativity, of course. I recomend to anyone who posts something that could be viewed as offensive by others, to post a warning BEFORE the work. Many already do this, which is good, but we must always hold respecting others, equal to ourselves, as prime importance.
Parmenion Posted May 21, 2003 Author Report Posted May 21, 2003 As I said, I wrote this only taking in one aspect of it in mind Gyrfalcon, much as people who lose love write only about the terrible hurt they feel in the heat of the moment - they tend to pick a slant. People talk on the good points of religion quite a lot and as you pointed out there is a lot of good done also which I mentioned in my previous post. I just decided to take a slant less talked about and write about that. Point taken Zool regarding the BEFORE warning to peeps, I am new to these forums and still not quite sure how they work so forgive my ignorance in the regard. I knew when constructing it that it may be conceived as controversial but the idea behind it was to get people to ask questions and to think. I've posted several poems in this forum to date and this appears to be the most popular/notorious as I predicted it would be. Does it not strike people as interesting how something written against the grain evokes more general interest than simply another love poem? Why is that? That was if you wish a testing experiment as to the idealogies present in this forum. If I do think of posting something something controversial at any future date - I'll make sure to include the warning at the start, you have my word on that.
Elwen Posted May 21, 2003 Report Posted May 21, 2003 Every religion has its dark points-and this captures the spirit of Christianity's perfectly. Granted, I'm not saying my own is all perfect and balanced just because nature is revered, but sometimes certain slants get ignored. But a warning would be nice...
The Portrait of Zool Posted May 21, 2003 Report Posted May 21, 2003 Parmenion, you rhetorically ask; "Does it not strike people as interesting how something written against the grain evokes more general interest than simply another love poem? Why is that?" Let me give my view on that which is that everyone is familiar with pain, are still coming to terms with security and control over their own lives, thus it resonates with everyone. At the center of life is a very deep pain, the pain of existance, the pain of loneliness, the weight of responsibility for self. It is only after we have come to know that pain, and come to terms with it, that we can let it go and freely explore the liberating power of love and joy - but that takes a lot of work and hard-won experience. No offense, but everyone here tends to be younger and are still looking for that freedom and security, thus more of us are usually more experienced with the rougher side of perception. That, IMO, is why you will find more general interest in the more negative themes.
Peredhil Posted May 21, 2003 Report Posted May 21, 2003 Interesting and well-written poem. As a person who chose after researching many religions to be a hard-core Christian, I recognize many of the historical references. I think, for the benefit of everyone, that it should be noted that any belief system that involves human beings has a dark historical side to it. In my mind, that doesn't take away the truth or perfection of Christianity, just as my Buddhist friends don't think the warrior monk slaughters accurately reflect the message of Buddha. Or Hindu atrociticies, or Moslem, or Wiccan, or Communist or whatever. I think it's pretty easy to focus on what excuse people use to do what ever "evil" they want - whether they claim it is a God's name, or a Nation's. For me as a Seeker, I choose to examine the teachings for myself, and find out if maybe traditions are missing something. I hope I can always consider something before knee-jerk rejecting it. This IS a literary work - and as you said, slanted to one side. It could've been for any religion or system (any companion pieces being researched?) or slanted the other way (any of these in the works?) Thought provoking and a warning to anyone that it's always individual choice - no excuses... -Peredhil
Cheyenne Posted May 21, 2003 Report Posted May 21, 2003 As for me, I like it. Very much so. I am a christian but it is always refreshing to recall the injustices that we all as humans do in the name of God, or whichever name you give your savior. While this can be considered a very controversial work, it is none the less true. It speaks of atrocities that have occured, not saying they will again. I hope and believe one day we will find a way to peace without war, that all peoples will be looked upon as equals, and treated that way as well. Very nicely written. Thank you for sharing. Cheye
Parmenion Posted May 21, 2003 Author Report Posted May 21, 2003 Yup it could easily have been written for any religion or political system. I chose the slant before the subject if you get me. Historical religion (all kinds) is an interest of mine as is history itself. I'm sure I could put a few more of these together regarding other systems but I think 1 every 6 months or so is more than enough controversy. /me steps out of controversial limelight for a while. Thank you to everyone who read and shared their views on this it is much appreciated.
Kendricke Posted May 21, 2003 Report Posted May 21, 2003 Lords and Ladies, I realize that I have a long history regarding dramatics and controversy, so perhaps it is fitting that I make my own thoughts on such a topic as this known at this time. Then again, there arises the question of the topic, or rather what the topic here actually is. Those who see what is before their eyes may see this as merely a discussion on a poem about Christianity and only then because the title of the poem blatantly states as much (I wonder if this poem have evoked the same response if it was not titled as such). Personally, I feel the topic is much larger, based in itself largely upon the fact that this discussion has evolved as it has. The topic is no longer merely this poem, or even religion, but rather Poetry itself. It begs us to answer the question - what IS Poetry? The office of poetry is not to make us think accurately, but feel truly. -Frederick William Robertson Poetry is not merely the collection of safe places and comfortable feelings. If anything, poetry is the contradiction of such things. Poetry is designed, by its very nature, to evoke responses. If poetry did not challenge our sensibilities, it would not move us at all. If it does not move us, then what is its point? Poetry is not a language we speak with diplomacy and political correctness. It is a language of power and might. The very name of these forums refers to that fact. Words can hurt, but they can also heal, warm, chill, warn, anger and evoke. The best wordsmiths can do all and more within a single audience. The true Masters can evoke all these differing responses within a single person. The greatest poem is not that which is most skillfully constructed, but that in which there is the most poetry. -L. Schefer Poetry reminds us of who we are, and enables us to see the world through a different shade of perspective. Of course poetry will be slanted and biased. All good art is. Growth demands resistance. True progress comes only with great difficulity. Muscles and bones grow only when shown a need for growth. So it is with our minds' ability to reason and understand. Learning does not come from stagnation, but from challenge and adversity. Poetry can be ignored, but it cannot be denied. Poetry is power. Poetry is might. You may agree or disagree with the message, but you cannot deny the power behind that message. Just as you cannot deny the emotional responses of this particular poem. Whether you feel the message is accurate or not is irrelavant. The point of poetry is not within the understanding, but within the deliverance. The very act of poetry is its own point. Poetry exists as much, if not more, for the benefit of the poet as it does for the audience. We do not write because we want to; we write because we have to. -W. Somerset Maugham Remember that the critique of a poem is not the same as the critique of its subject. Keep your minds open to the possibility that understanding is not a personal possession and the world becomes an infinate possibility unto itself. The only limitations we have are those we impose upon ourselves. The sky is grey and the grass is purple. Don't let anyone tell you what to think - not even yourself. Yours in Honour, Lord Kendricke, Guildmaster and Elder of Respect, Legion of the White Rose
Nobody of Consequence Posted May 21, 2003 Report Posted May 21, 2003 Parmenion, I hope you won't feel this is presumptuous, but I'll actually stick to treating this as a poem Over all, it is a strong piece. I'll do a line by line, I think ... A moon and a sun, A worshipping man, An Order, disciples, A golden ram. *** Great opening Execution of others, Not of the same, An ark with a drunkard, Who saved those that came. *** First two lines aren't quite as pithy as the last two An emperor, a leader, A spreading wave, A man who was dead, Removed from his grave. *** Nice and tight A crusade for a land, A jihad that was sworn, Two decimated peoples, War tired and torn. *** Personally, I think this is a bit of a weak link in the poem. It doesnt have quite the same ... force ... as the other verses, I'm afraid. An inquisition of thinkers, Burning books, causing strife, In a moment in history, When disease was rife. *** Last two lines for 'pith' A collar, a priest, A whimpering boy, A milky face, A grunt of joy. *** strongest verse in the poem, IMO. Fewest words, strongest images. In fact, I think that verse could actually stand alone as a poem. A controlling power, A force to these days, A changing of thoughts, Their secrets portrayed. A rape of our justice, Their hands were in all, The ruining of lives, How had they the gall? *** I felt as though the last verse wasn't quite distinct enough from the verse before it, so the conclusion lost a bit of the poem's narritive thrust for me. I'm not sure if you used 'gall' as your last word simply for effect or because of the pun (body parts/flesh of christ etc). Let me know, please? Curious. Leaving the thematic issue aside, I think this already stands as a good piece. I honestly feel it could use some minor tweaking, and end up brilliant. ANd please, since I'm new here, let me know if any of this is or is not what you're after in the way of feedback, so I'll know in future - I get the feeling you're kinda prolific
WrenWind Posted May 22, 2003 Report Posted May 22, 2003 A collar, a priest, A whimpering boy, A milky face, A grunt of joy. I also found this to be a very powerful stanza . It gave me chills Good work Parm
Ozymandias Posted May 23, 2003 Report Posted May 23, 2003 The only flaw I find is your subtitle. Due to the setup of these new boards, subtitles have essentially become a part of our works, and unfortunately (unless I've read you explanations incorrectly), the one you chose here is very misleading, in that your poem is an examination of the evil that men do in Christianity/religion/amongst themselves (simply "food for thought", if you will) but the subtitle leads the reader almost immediately to beleive this is Christianity's entire history, and that the poem is about what Christinaity is all about. Am I on the mark or way off? Either way, a very, very skillfully written poem with intense enough emotional impact that it feels like a punch in the gut from a random passerby. I'm very VERY interested to see what you post next.
Jechum Posted May 27, 2003 Report Posted May 27, 2003 Jechum floats in... I like the poem above… I have less skill in words and more of heart… and have but a simple answer. A sword I buried in the ground, For here I will stand, I will ignore the teacher, For it is simpler to be a Pharisee! No this is not for me! For the teacher showed us the way And the enemy made religion to divide man Who is to blame for the evil done in the name of Christianity! Jechum floats out...
Tralla Posted May 28, 2003 Report Posted May 28, 2003 An ark with a drunkard, Who saved those that came. I absolutely LOVE these lines! Now *that* is a great slant - a complete reversal on a very very well-known story. I believe that is the real driving force behind some of the more powerful stanzas, along with the phrases "A man who was dead,/Removed from his grave." and "In a moment in history,/When disease was rife." One of the things that makes me hesitate to read religious-themed material, especially Christian, is that the most common pov's of "It's a good religion", "It sucks", and "Well, it *is* good, but..." have been done over and over and over again and every well-known issue has been beaten positively to death. Being able to take a humorous/cynical spin on what is often an overly serious topic makes such a read refreshing. So, although the image of the priest and boy is very powerful, I have to say I like the Wilde-esque comments far more, and I think they do much more for the poem as a whole, especially to make it stand out from the abundance of religious-themed works out there. Thank you for sharing, Parm.
BlackCagedHeart Posted March 21, 2004 Report Posted March 21, 2004 ::clears throat:: AHEM!!!::cough cough:: Let me be the voice of "sunlight". I LIKED IT!!! IT's basically a revised version of my poem, but better than my poem! YAY> :woot: Congrats on a politicval contreversy!!!! YAY, controversy! DAMN YOU POPUPS!!! Ooops....nevermind that....::blushes:: BlackCagedHEart
Ayshela Posted March 21, 2004 Report Posted March 21, 2004 *nod* it would be an interesting comparison and contrast between this poem and yours, BCH - however, in the interests of the community i'd recommend that we keep the focus on *writing* and on the poetry itself and check the controversy at the door. =)
Jareena Faye Posted March 22, 2004 Report Posted March 22, 2004 Hmmm. Would you care to meet me in the general forum, and debate that "removed from His grave" bit?
Recommended Posts