Archive Posted January 15, 2003 Report Posted January 15, 2003 Wyvern00 Elder of Initiates Posts: 677 (7/29/02 11:55:17 pm) Reply "Quest for the Chaos" by Zadown -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Zadown, I read over what you've written so far in "Quest for the Chaos", and look forward to a continuation. I really like your uses of abstract imagery to convey emotions, such as your references to the Dreamer feeling "shattered" and recieving an internal scar. I also like the way you depict the Dreamer's tone and attitude, which has lost none of it's hard edged cynicism and seriousness. I'm interested to see in what ways the story developes, as a quest for the retreival of his past knowledge seems like an interesting concept. On a critical note: there were some places in the story where I thought comas were a bit overused, particularly in the second large paragraph of the second post. Also, there were one or two places where it would help to insert a coma, such as between "powers" and "scan" in the sentance "The Dreamer looked around and let his sixth senses, magic detection spells and weak psionic powers scan the nearby Void." This is some nice work, and I'm eager to read the continuation.
Archive Posted January 15, 2003 Author Report Posted January 15, 2003 Zadown Bard Posts: 205 (7/31/02 4:19:16 am) Reply Re: "Quest for the Chaos" by Zadown -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hmm... I guess yer right about the commas. The rules for them are quite different in Finnish and in English. Did those two during an evening shift on my factory comp. Not too bad considering the surroundings. *shrug* The idea for the story has been in my head for months and months. I'm pretty sure I have it finished before Xmas.
Archive Posted January 15, 2003 Author Report Posted January 15, 2003 Yui Temae Huntress Posts: 266 (7/31/02 8:49:06 am) Reply Re: "Quest for the Chaos" by Zadown -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Master Wyvern, please forgive me, but I must argue with one comment you've made. I will readily admit that I could be wrong, but I do believe it would be improper to add a comma to the sentence you mentioned. The Dreamer looked around and let his sixth senses, magic detection spells and weak psionic powers scan the nearby Void. I'm going to bore some people, probably, but I feel that this is something worth going over. Commas and their very intricate and rule-infested use are problems that I see (and fall victim to myself) so very, very often. They can singlehandedly ruin the comprehensibility and flow of a piece that is otherwise masterfully written, and it's not necessary. With a little work and better understanding of their purpose, anyone can harness the power of the comma to serve their whims! Anyway, let's take a look at the example from Zadown's work. I'd like to break the sentence apart. This is a sentence with a compound predicate separated by the conjuction ' and'. The Subject is 'The Dreamer', and the two Predicates are 1) ' looked around' and 2) ' let his sixth senses, magic detection spells and weak psionic powers scan the nearby Void.' Predicate #1 is pretty cut-and-dry, with a verb ( looked) and an adverb describing where he looked ( around). Predicate #2 follows the same pattern, however our 'adverb' has become an 'adverbial clause,' complete with its own compound subject ( his sixth senses, magic detection spells and weak psionic powers) and predicate ( scan the nearby Void).* Wyvern, with your suggestion, you're trying to add a comma in to separate the subject and predicate of the adverbial clause, which breaks the flow of the sentence in an unnatural place. Subjects are meant to link to their predicates, and commas are meant to forcibly break links in the sentence structure, either to prompt the reader to pause or to indicate a slight shift in the sentence's 'train of thought'. That's why you'll seldom find it appropriate to separate a subject and its predicate with a comma. Alternatively, if you're not one for the technicalities like I am, read the sentence aloud, remembering that a comma translates to a pause. It's a good general principle that all writers hopefully use! If you're in doubt, or if it's an ambiguous case in the rules, try reading the sentence aloud. Should there be a pause in there? If so, it's a good bet that you're safe to add a comma. If not, then don't. And when you're really in doubt, you can go back to something that my English teacher liked to preach to us in 8th grade. With regards to commas: "When in doubt, leave it out!" I hope that wasn't too tedious, and maybe a little bit educational. The moral...? Zadown, it is my firm belief that your sentence is correct as you wrote it and that there shouldn't be a comma between 'powers' and 'scan.' Sincerely, ~Yui-chan * If you want to further break it down, the predicate of the adverbial clause consists of the verb ( scan) and its object, telling what exactly was scanned ( the nearby Void).
Archive Posted January 15, 2003 Author Report Posted January 15, 2003 Zool47 Patron Saint of Aspiring Bards Posts: 547 (7/31/02 12:28:20 pm) Reply Re: "Quest for the Chaos" by Zadown -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well, I certainly am not as trained as Master Yui in the anatomy of sentance structure, but I find I agree with Wyvern. I think the fragment his sixth senses magic detection is kinda clunky in the sense you read it. The debate for me, as I read the sentence, is wether or not the magic detection is or is not a product of his sixth senses. If the magic detection is not, then the comma should be included to make this clear. If it is, then an apostrophe should be added to show the ownership, thus; his sixth sense's magic detection. At least, that's Zool's syntax.
Archive Posted January 15, 2003 Author Report Posted January 15, 2003 Wyvern00 Elder of Initiates Posts: 686 (8/1/02 12:20:37 am) Reply Re: "Quest for the Chaos" by Zadown -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yui, While I certainly understand where you're coming from and admire your grammatical knowledge, I still believe that in the case of this particular sentance either a comma is needed or it should be reworded. My reasoning is as follows: 1) As I see it, the comma placed between "sixth senses" and "magic" was put there to imply that "magic detection spells and weak psionic powers" are part of the Dreamer's "sixth senses". The way the sentance is currently worded suggests that the "magic detection spells and weak psionic powers" are a seperate entity from the Dreamer's sixth senses, which could be corrected if a comma were placed between "powers" and "scan". Alternatly, it could also be corrected if a parenthesis were put around "magic detection spells and weak psionic powers". 2) As Zool said, the sentance could also be implying that the "magic detection spells and weak psionic powers" are a seperate entity from the Dreamer's "sixth sense", in which case the comma between "sixth senses" and "magic" would be placed there to link two seperate sentances together. If this were the case, however, the first part of the sentance would have to be reworded, as "The Dreamer looked around and let his sixth senses" does not stand on its own as a full sentance. 3) Also, I often use the method you suggested by reading the sentance out loud to check for places where pauses belong. When I read this sentance aloud, I thought that a pause was needed between "powers" and "scan". Gut instinct, I s'pose... ;p Anyway, just my 50 cents...
Archive Posted January 15, 2003 Author Report Posted January 15, 2003 Nyyark Page Posts: 211 (8/1/02 5:47:25 am) Reply Re: "Quest for the Chaos" by Zadown -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wyvern giving money!!!!!!?!!!!! Never in all my days....
Archive Posted January 15, 2003 Author Report Posted January 15, 2003 Yui Temae Huntress Posts: 270 (8/1/02 8:39:32 am) Reply Re: "Quest for the Chaos" by Zadown -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wyvie and Zool, Ah-ha! Well, our difference of opinions lies in three different interpretations of what was meant. Wyvern, I see what you are saying, and thanks to your words, I see what Zool is saying. (Sorry, Zoolio, but I didn't understand what you meant, before. ) If you interpret the original intent of the sentence as to say that ' magic detection spells and weak psionic powers' are part of the Dreamer's sixth sense (I've often wondered about the 's' at the end. Typo? Or is it as Zool read it, and meant to show possession?), then I completely agree that it must be separated by commas at either end. It's an adjectival phrase in that case, if memory serves. However, my interpretation was that they were three separate talents, which is where my disagreement stems from. I thought Zadown's intention was to say that the Dreamer had his sixth sense(s) - something akin to Spiderman's spider sense? - in addition to his magic detecion spells and weak psionic powers. Does that explain all my ramblings about adverbial clauses and such? It also explains to me why you instinctively read a pause into it, and I didn't. I can't say as it's ever really occured to me just how completely different two people can read the same words, phrases, and sentences. It's kind of fascinating. I've always considered writing to be far less open to interpretation than art is, but you've made me reconsider that idea. Thanks! So, Zadown, which meaning did you intend? Does the Dreamer have a) a sixth sense, which manifests itself as magic detection spells and weak psionic powers, or all three - a sixth sense, magic detection spells, and weak psionic powers? Gladly helping herself to Wyvern's 50 cents, ~Yui
Archive Posted January 15, 2003 Author Report Posted January 15, 2003 Zool47 Patron Saint of Aspiring Bards Posts: 548 (8/1/02 9:39:36 am) Reply Re: "Quest for the Chaos" by Zadown -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yeah Zadown, which is it? You've got us all very curious!
Archive Posted January 15, 2003 Author Report Posted January 15, 2003 Zool47 Patron Saint of Aspiring Bards Posts: 549 (8/1/02 9:49:26 am) Reply Re: "Quest for the Chaos" by Zadown -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Also, I must question the last comma. According to Strunk and Whites "Elements Of Style"; In a series of three or more terms with a single conjunction, use a comma after each term except the last. With three terms and the connective "and", I have always folowed this rule of omitting the comma before the "and". Just my 47 cents...
Archive Posted January 15, 2003 Author Report Posted January 15, 2003 Wyvern00 Elder of Initiates Posts: 687 (8/1/02 1:01:05 pm) Reply Re: "Quest for the Chaos" by Zadown -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ahhhhhh... I see the difference in interpretations now! ;p Thanks for clarifying that Yui... It's true that if Zadown was implying that he was using his sixth senses in addition to his magic detection spells and weak psionic powers, the sentance would be grammaticly correct. Somehow I failed to notice this interpretation of it, but now that you point it out I think it's likely that that's what he had intended it to mean. This entire debate just further emphasizes the power and importance of commas, and how they can radicaly change one's interpretation of a text. I also would like to hear the exact meaning the Dreamer had intended behind the sentance. Just my -25 cents... ;p Note: Wyvern grabbed the 50 cents he had previously used out of the Pen charity box to make it seem as though he were acting generously for a change...
Archive Posted January 15, 2003 Author Report Posted January 15, 2003 Zool47 Patron Saint of Aspiring Bards Posts: 552 (8/1/02 6:47:44 pm) Reply Re: "Quest for the Chaos" by Zadown -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I, also would: like To bee enlitend, ontheintentions of yoor werk, and, have also reelized the impotence of proper. (And you're not fooling anyeone Wyv. ) ~Zool~ Ancient, The Pen is Mightier than the Sword. Bard of Terra, Patron Saint of Aspiring Bards. Master of Magic and Mayhem, The Moonlit Realm Elder than dirt, more foolish than a jester, able to trip over the smallest logic in a single step. It's... Oh, you know.
Archive Posted January 15, 2003 Author Report Posted January 15, 2003 Zadown Bard Posts: 206 (8/2/02 4:11:09 am) Reply Re: "Quest for the Chaos" by Zadown -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- LOL! That's about all I should say about the subject, but I guess I owe ya'll more than that. Having re-read the piece of text in question, I see it's crappy writing. Sixth senses, aye, as in multiple different channels of extra-sensory perception; innate ability, not directly related to his spells or psychic powers. Perhaps it should be something along the lines of... ... the Dreamer looked and looked around, tasted the nearby Void, smelled the currents, felt the raw Fate and Luck swirling around him in the nothingness, muttered the runes of his familiar cantrips of detection and sent lances of crude but powerful psionic detection to every direction. Nothing. He alone shone ... Perhaps it shouldn't. It's yer language, I'm just borrowing it. Some day I'll edit the text to involve purple rabbits...
Archive Posted January 15, 2003 Author Report Posted January 15, 2003 Zool47 Patron Saint of Aspiring Bards Posts: 556 (8/2/02 4:47:25 am) Reply Re: "Quest for the Chaos" by Zadown -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Zool stood regally in his protrait contemplating Zadown's update, a half dozen purple rabbits in various poses adorning his visage, sitting on his head, his shoulders, etc.. "Purple rabbits? Ridiculous."
Archive Posted January 15, 2003 Author Report Posted January 15, 2003 Yui Temae Huntress Posts: 274 (8/2/02 7:00:14 am) Reply Uh-oh. Did someone say rabbits? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bunnies! ::A child-sized green streak flew into the room, squealing with excitement, and stopped before Zool's image... more or less. Rather, she stood there bouncing up and down as if she were on an invisible pogo stick. The child had a chubby, angelic face and eyes and hair the bright green of a new leaf of a sunshiney day. She grinned blindingly at the portrait and leaned close, pressing her nose against the strange, immoveable canvas.:: Puwple bunnies! Ooooooooooooooooo... C'mere, bunnies, bunnies, bunnies! ::Much to Zool's mounting horror, she pressed rather dirty hands against the boundary between his 2D prison and the outside world, peering in excitedly as the rabbit on his head bounded off to land in the painting's foreground, twitching its painted nose curiously.:: BUNNY!
Archive Posted January 15, 2003 Author Report Posted January 15, 2003 Yui Temae Huntress Posts: 275 (8/2/02 7:06:38 am) Reply Re: Uh-oh. Did someone say rabbits? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Zool, With regards to your comment about the series of phrases separated by a conjuction, I have always understood that there were basically two conventions, and that most editors allowed either to be used. I was taught that: apples, oranges, and bananas was just as correct as apples, oranges and bananas I'm not positive about this comment, but I believe that the conventions are largely 'American English' versus 'British English', respectively. I'll be sure to ask Aegon about it later. 'Accidentally' rifling around in Wyvern's pocket for another 50 cents, ~Yui
Archive Posted January 15, 2003 Author Report Posted January 15, 2003 Zool47 Patron Saint of Aspiring Bards Posts: 557 (8/2/02 8:21:21 am) Reply Re: Uh-oh. Did someone say rabbits? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Either is acceptable, as my reference is, after all, only a style guide. It's just that that is my personal preference, and why.
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