Guest Mira Posted August 4, 2002 Report Posted August 4, 2002 A short one What is truth? Does it really exist? For all I've seen and ever known, Is lies. All these moments will be lost in time, like tears in the rain. "Give Peace a chance" -John Lennon-
Peredhil Posted August 5, 2002 Report Posted August 5, 2002 Could it be expectation clouding your perception? Man acts on his perceptions of reality, not necessarily on reality itself. Perhaps finding an external reference of truth, to use as litmus paper in life, testing everything and judging the results (never just the words), you can find an internal truth at last.
The Portrait of Zool Posted August 5, 2002 Report Posted August 5, 2002 Is that your truth, that you have no internal truth?
Nyyark Posted August 5, 2002 Report Posted August 5, 2002 Perhaps there is only internal truth, for wouldn't light only see darknes? Would that lead truth to only see lies?
The Portrait of Zool Posted August 5, 2002 Report Posted August 5, 2002 Could I logically deduce that up is down and night is day? LOL! Those who speak of objectivity and then make the facts their slaves! If I hear another person try to support their opinions with "I am a realist" I'm gonna puke! What does your heart tell you? Of course, if your heart has no truth in it, what does it matter?
Peredhil Posted August 5, 2002 Report Posted August 5, 2002 Peredhil looks quickly and sighs in relief as he ensures he didn't claim to be a realist! I suppose first we should define reality... After hugging the cranky Zool, Peredhil runs away laughing.
The Portrait of Zool Posted August 5, 2002 Report Posted August 5, 2002 Gaaah! I am NOT CRANKY! Define reality - isn't that like convicting a portrait of a crime the model committed? *Chuckle...* ~Zool~ Ancient, The Pen is Mightier than the Sword. Bard of Terra, Patron Saint of Aspiring Bards. Master of Magic and Mayhem, The Moonlit Realm Elder than dirt, more foolish than a jester, able to trip over the smallest logic in a single step. It's... Oh, you know.
Guest Xradion Posted August 6, 2002 Report Posted August 6, 2002 Interesting that such a short poem could spawn such a long philosophical debate . Props to Mira for that. I do not believe that there is such as thing as the "Single, All Important, Universal Truth That Clarifies All Existance!!!" However, I really don't think it matters all that much. You could argue endlessly about what reality and existance are. You could say, for example, "how do you know for certain that you weren't born yesterday, chemically aged, chemically infused with all your memories, and programmed to think the way you do?" However, this sort of reductio ad absurdum epistmelogical argument is pointless because it doesn't lead you anywhere. I think the best we can hope to do is evaluate that which is tangible to us with our five senses and determine what reality is for us. This is a philosophical perspective in itself, but to me, what is really important in human existance is the net sum of all human experience. We must realize that we cannot possibly hope to understand the nature of existance if we try to analyze it from a single person's perspective or by making use of only one field of study. Perhaps that sounds obvious, but what I mean by this is simply that the focus of our societal structures should not be on the individual and his/her freedoms OR on the greater justice and equality of the group as a whole, but rather, on both. One cannot truly exist without the other. I would like to believe that we are all bits and pieces of the universe trying to understand itself, and that the day that it does, everything will implode, and then begin anew when a sufficient ammount of energy accumulates. However, I believe that what I have just said that I would like to believe is a bunch of bull I just made up. Confused? Good. That having been said, anyone else care to continue this philosophical exchange? Xradion, The Horny Druid, Scholar of the Ancient Arts, Holder of the Eye of Odin. "The only emperor is the emperor of ice-cream." -Wallace Stevens "When at home, do as the Homans do." –Xradion
The Portrait of Zool Posted August 6, 2002 Report Posted August 6, 2002 Okay, Reality, for all intents and purposes, boils down berely to the realm of our experience. If it is consistent, why look beyond it for other explanations? (Of course 'ordinary' reality is not as consistent as the concretists would like to believe, which provokes them to no end. ) You do not believe that there is such as thing as the "Single, All Important, Universal Truth That Clarifies All Existance..."? Funny, that's what you seemed to sum up in your last paragraph...
Nyyark Posted August 6, 2002 Report Posted August 6, 2002 By your defintion of reality Zool, it would be different for eery person, as a metter of fact, I wouldn't see any 'our' about it. I've always tried to define reality as what actually is, rather than the realm of my existance. In my realm of existance, many thing exist that I know don't really don't. I wholly exist in my mind, and partally in reality, mainly because I attached things I recongize as important values to non-existant things. What then is the point of reality? Well I think its real only importance is for communication between two people. I can say this without worring about Christianity, because in that light reality doesn't matter. I only worry about the Lord. I find it really funny when people are so bound by reality. Especally when people say things like 'We will never be able to do [insert anything here]. If one but looks at people compared to 100- years ago, you can see how much the agreed upon 'must be reality' has changed. Do these people expect it not to change in the future? I've often wondere that.
Guest Minta Rose Posted August 6, 2002 Report Posted August 6, 2002 I dreamt you all into existence, on some level. Now if I learn to respond to you in the way I dream, you'll all respect me. A reality-bringer only tries to tell me that I am wrong. --Tzimfemme, the naked
Annael Posted August 6, 2002 Report Posted August 6, 2002 Reality? Simple, it's something to make us think about who we are, what our values are and if we are strong enough to uphold our believes in a world that doesn't make time for beliefs or values. Erm...I just confused myself...I hope that someone else kinda understands what I was trying to say... *thinks she needs to cut back on the coffee...it's muddling things in her head*
The Portrait of Zool Posted August 6, 2002 Report Posted August 6, 2002 " By your defintion of reality Zool, it would be different for eery person, as a metter of fact, I wouldn't see any 'our' about it." Actually, I was referring to our individual experiences. Reality is different for every person - or are you gonna tell me we aren't having this debate? " I've always tried to define reality as what actually is, rather than the realm of my existance." How do you seperate the two? Are you talking internal reality and external reality? Yes, they are also personal experiences, the internal shared overtly and the internal shared covertly. " In my realm of existance, many thing exist that I know don't really don't." Can you say "paradox"? Is this something like (just as a 'faith' example) God, whom you 'know' exists... " I wholly exist in my mind, and partally in reality, mainly because I attached things I recongize as important values to non-existant things." You'll have to explain this a little more, though I thought Know thyself came AFTER you were brought into physical existance. " What then is the point of reality? Well I think its real only importance is for communication between two people." I really couldn't say, but it has been handy for that durring this discussion. I reserve the right to point out other uses at some future time. " I can say this without worring about Christianity, because in that light reality doesn't matter. I only worry about the Lord." Reality doesn't matter? Then why put us through it? My own opinion about the Lord is that he isn't worried, but of course I really couldn't say. " I find it really funny when people are so bound by reality. Especally when people say things like 'We will never be able to do [insert anything here]. If one but looks at people compared to 100- years ago, you can see how much the agreed upon 'must be reality' has changed. Do these people expect it not to change in the future? I've often wondere that." Funny the concretist notions people pick up, isn't it? Edited by: Zool47 at: 8/6/02 11:28:12 am
The Portrait of Zool Posted August 6, 2002 Report Posted August 6, 2002 " I dreamt you all into existence, on some level. Now if I learn to respond to you in the way I dream, you'll all respect me. A reality-bringer only tries to tell me that I am wrong." I believe on some level, we all co-create each other. Are you sure you don't respond to me in the way you dream? I cannot know your reality, so I really couldn't tell you you're wrong. P.S. Bring chocolate, and we'll all respect you. ~Zool~ Ancient, The Pen is Mightier than the Sword. Bard of Terra, Patron Saint of Aspiring Bards. Master of Magic and Mayhem, The Moonlit Realm Elder than dirt, more foolish than a jester, able to trip over the smallest logic in a single step. It's... Oh, you know. Edited by: Zool47 at: 8/6/02 11:32:42 am
The Portrait of Zool Posted August 6, 2002 Report Posted August 6, 2002 "I'm not entirely sure why you use this ofre of debate. To me it looks really condesending, as well as putting more value on word than meaning, but I'll use it while adressing you as your prolly more comfortable with it." Wow. that's very big of you to use my "ofre of debate" (could I take this opportunity to ask you to try to be a little clearer, at least correct obvious misspellings that are crucial to the understanding?), since I am probably more comfortable with it, even though you find it condescending. Please consider me to feel appropriately publicly spanked by your gracious and clever inversion of responsibility - it's not condescending at all (on some planet, I'm sure.) Reading through the rest of your reply, I take it you found my reply to you just a little more than condescending - I'd go so far as to say you found it, well, insulting. Please accept my humblest apologies, if you were insulted. Also, I see you understood very little of my reply - entirely my fault, I am again sure. Perhaps you would consider a change in tack. Should we start over? Should we pick a single issue for clarification? Perhaps pistols at fifty paces? Lemme know. Edited by: Zool47 at: 8/6/02 1:50:43 pm
Nyyark Posted August 6, 2002 Report Posted August 6, 2002 sorry Edited by: Nyyark at: 8/6/02 5:07:47 pm
Peredhil Posted August 6, 2002 Report Posted August 6, 2002 All right you two! I know you both, and sense a sting on both parts. Nyyark, I've told you that if you care more for content than spelling and grammar, anyone can use it to end an argument with you. Sheesh. Misha was famous for it when he could bait Kendricke into not using a spell checker. shakes his head. It's the old pluralist/monotheist controversy all over again. What is reality? What is truth? Who is God? Who am "I"? these are eternal questions that can be fun to debate, but let's not forget that there are people on both sides - and that the answers have yet to find a definitive conclusion. Pistols at fifty paces? That WOULD be a traditional answer, wouldn't it? War? I note the sarcasm, but it rings true historically. Please be gentle with one another, I cherish you both. One way or another, everyone finds an answer when they die. Hugs and YFA,
The Portrait of Zool Posted August 6, 2002 Report Posted August 6, 2002 Yeesh, PLEASE don't compare me to Misha! Honestly, I know I've slaughtered a word or six in a sentence, but it's usually at least phonetically decodable. I figured "ofre" was most probably supposed to be "form", but only because I couldn't think of what else it could be. I just thought I might gently suggest a little more legibility, without insulting or accusing. Actually, I am impressed by your sharp wit Nyyark (just don't accidentally cut yourself ). Is it the old pluralist/monotheist controversey? I thought we were talking realities, not deities. It could figure in, and it just as well could not be mentioned. At any rate, yeah, I suppose I could always learn some gentleness. My apologies, again. YFA Edited by: Zool47 at: 8/6/02 7:31:50 pm
Falcon2001 Posted August 6, 2002 Report Posted August 6, 2002 Misha? As in, THE misha? Overkill? That same one...oh crap, I forgot I'm playing AM again, curse me to heck. But anyway, yeah, I remember him. Just my ranted two cents Cioden Darkeye Quill-Bearer - The Pen is Mightier than the Sword President of the Peredhil Fan Club Owner of the Reply Raven - Enemy to all those who never post responses Ashaman - WoT - Blitz II Council - The Hunters - Blitz II Leisure Officer - SFV Ultima - Beta
Nyyark Posted August 7, 2002 Report Posted August 7, 2002 I'm not entirely sure why you use this ofre of debate. To me it looks really condesending, as well as putting more value on word than meaning, but I'll use it while adressing you as your prolly more comfortable with it. "How do you seperate the two? Are you talking internal reality and external reality? Yes, they are also personal experiences, the internal shared overtly and the internal shared covertly." Well Zool, I can't clearly define what is going on in reality. I can however allow for my perception of everything to be wrong, and seek out an accurate perception by comparing mine with others. Can you say "paradox"? Is this something like (just as a 'faith' example) God, whom you 'know' exists... Paradox. Yes Zool I can say it, and unlike Pepsi commercals with Albert Einstien I know what it means too. What I'm wondering is if you can understand beliving something you know is wrong. I think in 1984 they called it double think. Sometimes reality really sucks, so you have to overlook things to enjoy yourself. These things are really, but I choose not to acknowledge their existance. Usually I acknowlege existance though, just not their ability to affect me. Unhealthy, probably, but I do it anyway. "You'll have to explain this a little more, though I thought Know thyself came AFTER you were brought into physical existance." Yes myself awareness did come after I existed. However how I sought it brought me into a very symbolic world. I can only percive reality from the feeble five senses I have, and my rationality. Most would admit they aren't perfect. Neither am I. My perception does indeed differ from what really is, and in some cases I know where. That false part of my perception had become a rather large part of who I am, and rather than lose that chunk of me, I just didn't adjust my perception. If you've notice I don't worry too much about being very accurate with reality, because I don't see it as too important. "I really couldn't say, but it has been handy for that durring this discussion. I reserve the right to point out other uses at some future time." Go ahead, Its not my intention to limit you. "Reality doesn't matter? Then why put us through it? My own opinion about the Lord is that he isn't worried, but of course I really couldn't say. " You're the one putting yourself through reality. You live in it by your own choice. Why have it? I don't think people would be able to find much in common if they didn't have reality. "Funny the concretist notions people pick up, isn't it?" Indeed.
Peredhil Posted August 7, 2002 Report Posted August 7, 2002 oh, my bad! I was noting the most famous example of online spell correcting, Misha AND Kendricke. You are definitely NOT Misha, and you shouldn't even take that as an attempt to apply his personality to you. Sorry sorry sorry. That would indeed not be gentle in itself. Writing in haste perpetuates misunderstanding, once again. Heh, Old Friend, you know that eventually for me, EVERYTHING comes back around to my belief in my understanding of God. On the other hand, this conversation has danced around the concept on its own - rereading some of the posts, you could replace the word truth with the word God safely I'd think. I wasn't disagreeing with Nyyark's need to doublecheck his spelling! When I'm at home, I'm always harping on that. He has this frustrating knack of writing as he thinks, one draft with no review, and hitting post. When you read his stuff, it's all straight from brain to keyboard, little edit. shakes his head. Unfortunately, he'll do the same thing on school reports... If it can't be read, it doesn't matter how meaningful it is, it just doesn't communicate! Looks at Nyyark to see if he's tuned out the 10,000th repetion of the platitude. When I read it, I read it in the context of "offer of debate". But then I have the advantage of knowing his speech patterns. GROUP HUG! hugs everyone in the thread YFA, -P snicker. edit to fix a spelling error that crept in when I posted straight from thought to keyboard with no review. Maybe that's where he gets it... Edited by: peredhil31 at: 8/7/02 6:30:09 am
Guest Minta Rose Posted August 7, 2002 Report Posted August 7, 2002 HEY! Someone filched my chocolate during that hug! (Tzimfemme glares at all and sundry.) That was underhanded! That was devious! That makes my AoA heart proud. . . --Tzimfemme, the Naked Mage P.S. Correcting someone on spelling and grammar lost all its fun once I discovered the thrill of "I thought it up with my large brain" unfounded, undefeatable personal opinion arguments.
The Portrait of Zool Posted August 8, 2002 Report Posted August 8, 2002 Oh very well! Zool moves to a large blackboard where he begins resignedly writing one thousand times: "I will not point out other's misspellings or bad grammar." Happy? *Turning back to the blackboard he stealthily munches on a piece of chocolate hidden in his cupped hand...*
reverie Posted August 11, 2002 Report Posted August 11, 2002 Reality is. And truth is its reflection. And time is just one damn thing right after another... Interpetations vary just as eye glass perscription vary... yea... revery the dreamlost "seek to find, your silly ryhme" the dream continues... Which Colossal Death Robot Are You?
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