No Fear

[Guest ArawnD]

I have a question, as I sit here in the shadows ever observant. What is about fear that we love and hate? I've of late tried to find the answer and have a curiousity that must be satisfied, an answer is all I require: What scares you? What makes you tremble in the night, what keeps you from sleeping when you hear that bump from outside, when walking down that dark street what is that you look over your shoulder and dread seeing?

 

The Mad King

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[reverie]

revery shudders, "ghosts... in all forms"

 

 

 

revery

 

the dreamlost

 

"i'm cold, brrrrr...shudder,chatter,shudder"

 

the dream continues...

Which Colossal Death Robot Are You?

[Guest Lord Seth Exodus]

I must say, this is an intreging subject to ponder; I've done it many times myself. What we love and hate about fear is dependant upon the type of fear. There is the adrenalin rush, thrill and mystery of scaring yourself on an amusment park ride, or walking through the dark alone. There's the bettterment of life through the healthy fear of God which we should all posess. On the contrary to these, there is the fear/hatered of personal injury or loss. And there's the fear/disdain held when one considers that they are not totally in controle of their own life. The joy of considering and learning from the unknown has always been great for man. But, so too, there is the desire to conquer and even destroy that which we do not understand for fear of it, which leads to loss. There are many points to consider when looking at the love/hates of fear; these are my views.

 

 

 

Yours,

 

Lord Seth Exodus

[The Portrait of Zool]

From todays headlines...

 

 

 

story.news.yahoo.com/news...d_abducted ~Zool~

 

 

 

Ancient, The Pen is Mightier than the Sword.

 

Bard of Terra, Patron Saint of Aspiring Bards.

 

 

 

Master of Magic and Mayhem, The Moonlit Realm

 

 

 

Elder than dirt, more foolish than a jester, able to trip over the smallest logic in a single step. It's... Oh, you know.

[Gwaihir]

pain, shame, lack of power and lack of control

 

 

 

I think that somewhat humans fear things that change their state without their permission. If I get scared by a roller coaster that is by choice, but if I get chased by a lion or lose my job those are things I have no control over. ----------

I want to be page 93 of Pineapples, the Avian Crows-Nyyark

[The Portrait of Zool]

An interesting artifact of some religions is the 'Fear of God'.

 

 

 

How bizarre. How arcane. How passe.

 

 

 

Frankly, it comes straight out of the fear Gwaihir has just posited, the fear of "...Things that change their state without their permission". I'd like to paraphrase that as 'against one's will'.

 

 

 

On the flip side is the view that it a matter of pure hubris. To think that one who does not fear God, must place themselves above God - like that would be possible.

 

 

 

So why fear God? Is it merely taking all unseen forces we cannot control and pigeon holing them under the label 'God' and sentencing our perception with perpetual fear?

 

 

 

FEAR THESE THINGS, FOR WE KNOW NOT WHAT HORRIBLE FATE WILL LEAP OUT AT US.

 

 

 

Does God have it in for us? Is God merely a stern parent, with a whip in one hand and a velvet glove on the other - a manipulator? If not, then why fear him? Is He not just? Is He not fair?

 

 

 

Must we fear justice and fairness?

 

 

 

Of all the things to fear, you would think the Divine could be excluded.

[Guest Lord Seth Exodus]

My dear Zool, I think you have a slightly confused perception of things. If I may...

 

 

 

You made the comment that we, as humans, should "FEAR THESE THINGS, FOR WE KNOW NOT WHAT HORRIBLE FATE WILL LEAP OUT AT US." But, the fact of the matter is that, as christians, we DO know what horrible fate awaits us if we do not fear, honor and follow God; His hand will be against us on earth, and we shall be eternally damned after this mortal life is finished; complete sereration from God = death.

 

 

 

Now, I'm not saying that God is some vicious tyrant who will smite you if you do not follow his commands. Rather, He loves us so much that he has placed before us certain rules and commandments, which you cannot argue are not morally sound, that we should follow to have the best possible life. If we choose not to follow these He will work in our lives, through loss, pain and strife, to show us that we do need him, we do need to follow His laws, and that life through Him is the the best possible life.

 

 

 

I have a few passages of scripture for you, my friend.

 

 

 

"Fear the Lord your God, serve him only and take your oaths in his name. Do not follow other gods, the gods of the peoples around you; for the Lord your God, who is amoung you, is a jealous God and his anger will burn against you, and he will destroy you from the face of the land. Do not test the Lord your God as you did at Massah. Be sure to keep the commands of the Lord your God and the stipulations and ddecrees he has given you. Do what is right and good in the Lord's sight, so that it may go well with you and you may go in and take over the good land that the Lord promised on oath to your forefathers, thrusting out all your enemies before you, as the Lord said." - Deuteronomy 5:13-19

 

 

 

"If you fear the Lord and serve and obey him and do not rebel against his commands, and if both you and the king who reigns over you follow the Lord your God - good! But if you do not obey the Lord, and if you rebel against his commands, his hand will be against you, as it was against your fathers." - 1Samuel 12:14-15

 

 

 

You see, He is fair and He is just, but if you do not follow the things He says what could be more fair and just but a punishment for your sins to bring you back to Him?

 

 

 

We must have a HEALTHY fear of God; one of respect and honor for Him.He is king, ruler and creator of the universe, He deserves nothing less.

 

 

 

Yours,

 

Lord Seth Exodus

[Gwaihir]

Gwai feels the angles to both the last two posts and ducks ----------

I want to be page 93 of Pineapples, the Avian Crows-Nyyark

[Orlan]

Gotta watch where you toss around "we" and "christians"

 

 

 

Not everyone is of the same religious page.

[The Portrait of Zool]

"Now, I'm not saying that God is some vicious tyrant who will smite you if you do not follow his commands."

 

 

 

" ...for the Lord your God, who is amoung you, is a jealous God and his anger will burn against you, and he will destroy you from the face of the land."

 

 

 

And I have a slightly confused perception of things??

 

 

 

Look, to try to avoid another point counter point argument, what we have here in that definition of God is a two handed entity. One (I'll call it the 'right' hand of God) who is kind, loving and merciful to those who, shall we say, take up his word, and then we have a jealous, angry, and I'll add vengeful God for his detractors (which I shall call his 'left' hand).

 

 

 

It's a mirror image of complete incompatibility. I'm sure it's been asked many times and explained away in myriad ways, but how can a God described in so many 'right' handed ways pretend to remain so when his left hand persona is dealt out?

 

 

 

But those contradictions are not even my point. I'm even going to outright agree that a person who leads a 'sinful' life (definitions will vary by religion) will suffer - I'm just saying isn't it a bit of overkill to profess to ultimate love when in 'fact' when 'tested' He supposedly metes out punishment with extreme prejudice - that's it's not enough to promise Heaven to the righteous, you have to threaten with the promise of EVERLASTING Hell to those who 'test' him?

 

 

 

Doesn't He have a dictionary? Or perhaps those who claim to know his mind...

 

 

 

That's all I'm saying.

[Gwaihir]

May I complicate by pointing out that not all of us believe that our God is as harsh as the god of the old testament? I personally believe that what you call the right side of God is most of him, we just can't always understand him. ----------

I want to be page 93 of Pineapples, the Avian Crows-Nyyark

[The Portrait of Zool]

Well Gyr, you may very well be correct, this current turn of discussion would be better having it's own thread. And yes it can be a touchy subject, depending on how tightly we cling to our opinions. The title of the thread, however, is "NO FEAR".

 

 

 

So, what are we afraid of?

 

 

 

But to say a few points on yours...

 

 

 

All of your examples are irrational. That is not to say they don't make sense, they certainly do. Many fears are based on exactly what you say. My point is that your stated fears are all behavioural, wether learned from personal experience, from the experience of others, or outright instinct. There is no thought involved with your examples.

 

 

 

So, let's go further on your 'specifics' and add what could only be called 'rational' fears. That is not to say they make sense, for they certainly need not, except to their owner. Let's say, as an example, that someone proposes a change in the ranking structure of the Pen. Everyone will have opinions. There will be those who are for it, and those who are against it. Being against ANYTHING is always a position of fear.

 

 

 

That's not to say you necessarily must support every idea. You can, for example, be more FOR one proposal than another. It's a different way of thinking - but I submit we're all a lil irregular here and there.

 

 

 

Oh, and as far as my example, what are we afraid of there? Just as Gwaihir put it before, I'll say it again.

 

 

 

"...Things that change their state without their permission"

 

 

 

But interestingly, any proposal only exists in the imagination, until it is passed. So, then, we are actually only afraid of what we imagine it might do. That is a very good example of rational fear. Edited by: Zool47  at: 8/29/02 1:25:09 pm

[Canid]

I agree with Gyrfalcon's analysis of types of fear.

 

I dissagree that to be against something is to fear. I don't want to spill a glass of juice and am therefore against doing so. But this is simply because it would be inconvenient - nothing to do with fear.

 

 

 

To be certain of this we must agree on what fear is and in such situations I like to take it to the basics of the concept.

 

Fear's original purpose was to kick our system into high-gear to escape a danger via an adrenalin release.

 

If an animal chased us, adrenalin would let us run faster.

 

If a child is separated from its mother, fear drives it to panic and thus call out. - Survival.

 

It can be rational or instinctive but this was the purpose.

 

Simply being against something thus is not fear automatically.

[The Portrait of Zool]

*Afraid he will lose his point, Zool has to go against Canid's.*

 

 

 

[Gyrfalcon]

Not to be rude or anything, but perhaps this discussion would be better served in a new thread? While I do have a brief two cents to throw in on the current topic, I'll wait until it has its own thread.

 

 

 

This thread is for what we fear, not debating points of religious matters. (Which I generally don't think is a good idea- people are too touchy about their religions.)

 

 

 

Anyway, back to the main subject...:

 

 

 

from a psycological aspect, fear can be explained in a few ways. (Forgive me if I miss one or do not state these properly)

 

 

 

First, some fears are instinctive- someone can have a fear of spiders without ever having been bitten by one, for example.

 

 

 

Second, fears are learned- if you badly burned in a fire accident, there is a good chance you will fear fire from then on. You will almost certainly never grow to love it.

 

 

 

Third, you are taught to fear (or hate) something, by watching how those around you react.

 

 

 

So those are the clinical (if I didn't mess them up too much) reasons why you might fear something. Now as to a person's SPECIFIC reason for fearing something, that is up to him or her to explain.

[Nyyark]

Zool I think that when someone fears something, they tend to go against it. However just because someone go against something does not mean they fear it. To me its a sorta If P then Q, which is not nessicarrly true backwards.

 

 

 

However its not nessicarrly true forwards, so I kinda think the entire statment is incrorrect. I suppose some poeple always react to things they fear by opposing it, and I suppose some poeple always oppose only things they fear, I however don't include myself in either of those groups.

 

 

 

Now as to what I fear:

 

 

 

the 1st on my list is myself. After a few very disturbing nightmares I realized I am very scary. However because this fear is probably the eaisest to control it doesn't cause me much grief.

 

 

 

I don't like things that live on the cornor of the vision, and whisper things that can't quiet be heard. I think this is sorta a fear of the "can't be known".

 

 

 

I don't like walking in the dark when I can't see past my knees. I hate brushing furry things in the night.

 

 

 

I used to be afriad of spiders being over my head, and going to sleep only to wake up to a thick web about a foot above me crawling with spiders.

 

 

 

I'm also somethimes afraid that things will just stop making sense.

 

 

 

Well thats all I can think of right now....

[Guest Lord Seth Exodus]

I've already donated my two cents. Just a note for you, Zool. I should very much like to continue our little conversation. So, if it's not suited to this thread, and you're willing to start a new one, I'll meet you there. If not, good hunting to you, my friend.

 

 

 

-Lord Seth Exodus

[The Big Pointy One]

As oft as I profess to having no fears (at least to myself, anyways...) I think I'm falling into a state of cowardice, or something like that. There are many things that I fear in the mortal world, and the possibility of the world after. I think I'll only mention that deeply ingrained human fear; the one I think most people have, whether they know it or not (feel free to disagree) but that fear of spending one's life alone. Lately that fear seems to quickly becoming reality, and I think it is indeed taking it's toll. Regardless, I also think most fears can be conquered, eventually.

 

 

 

As for the non-mortal, the great there-after, the whole concept of eternity bothers me to the center of my being. Regardless of the possibility of fates, regardless of religion, any way you look at it, forever *is* forever. When you think about it, how long does paradise seem like paradise? Perhaps I'm one who needs near-constant changing (another psychological analysis would be needed here...) but the thought of an eternity of doing *anything* irks me. I'd think after a while pleasure and torture would basically fade into each other. Of course, there's other possibilities such as re-incarnation and enlightenment, obviously of religious base. In the end though, I doubt it'd be much different, to me. Obviously though, that's just it- you *don't* know until 'the end'. Perhaps all mortal thoughts and feelings like that fade away. Who knows. It all goes back to the above discussions which tie into one of the other great human needs/fears- curiousity and the unknown. What we don't know, we need to, and if we can't, it scares us.

 

 

 

I hate being human.

 

 

 

 

 

(And don't even get my started on the paradox that is reality... ~sigh~)

[Falcon2001]

lol, I thought you said 'Fear of those who change their STATS without telling you'

 

 

 

That would be scary.

 

 

 

Anyway, I believe God can be both handed. That's my view, I've gotta run. Cioden Darkeye

 

 

 

 

 

Quill-Bearer - The Pen is Mightier than the Sword

 

Owner of the Reply Raven - Enemy to all those who never post responses

 

"Oh my God, I'm LEAKING POETRY!"

[The Portrait of Zool]

It seems there are some very deep feelings on the subject of fear - of death, of pain, of not being In-the-know or in control. Interestingly (to me, presumably, or more likely, most likely), when this subject came up, the first thing I did was go to m-w.com and look up 'fear'.

 

 

 

I often do that - just seems prudent. Here is what I found;

 

 

 

Main Entry: 1fear

 

Pronunciation: 'fir

 

Date: before 12th century

 

transitive senses

 

1 archaic : FRIGHTEN

 

2 archaic : to feel fear in (oneself)

 

3 : to have a reverential awe of fear God>

 

4 : to be afraid of : expect with alarm

 

intransitive senses : to be afraid or apprehensive

 

- fear·er noun

 

 

 

Definition 3 caught my eye, but I did not feel compelled to comment on it - until someone else mentioned the fear of God we should all posess.

 

 

 

I apologise, but I then decided to have some fun. You see, I really am not a nice person at all. End of story.

 

 

 

So I commenced to display the contradiction of the old testament God with the new Christian ideal. As the dictionary shows, old testament 'fear of God' has morphed into something which isn't truly 'fear' at all. The phrase 'fear of God' has become a word unto itself, with it's own idiom and usage, it's own definition, migrating from FRIGHTEN and dread to the more REVERENTIAL AWE combining veneration and wonder.

 

 

 

Funny though, when one reads the old words directly, isn't it?

 

 

 

Quite honestly, I was hoping for some enlightening conversation about the evolution of God, but other than overtly stating the modern sentiment with the words blazing out openly in contradiction, that didn't happen. Heh, I guess you can take the old time religion out of fear, but you can't take the fear out of the old time religion. At any rate, it seems taboo to broach the subject, thus some peoples reactions.

 

 

 

God can be both handed? We have established that the definition can extend to both hands, but is this truly the nature of God or merely the wishful thinking of those who are afraid of death, of pain, of not being In-the-know or in control? They will get theirs is but an extension of 'An eye for an eye', a biblical quote extolling the competition of rival agendas, which seems to have fallen out of favor over time - no doubt due to our old stand-by belief of eternal damnation for our enemies - which is only taking the fight to the next level. Or perhaps it was simply our inability to twist the meaning of the original words to something more contemporary?

 

 

 

Anyway, as has been shown, the definition of God has changed through the ages, right down to changing the definition of the very words that described him, where we have the original words. I wonder what we will think about God in, say, another 5000 years? ...and what language we will use to describe him?

 

 

 

Absolutely fascinating.

 

[Jechum]

Well Zool lets come back here and discuss this in 5000 years. I believe the conversation will be fascinating then too. Jechum Newbie, Mage of Shadows

 

the Pen is Mightier than the Sword - Ancient Lore

[The Portrait of Zool]

Exactly.

[Lady Celes Crusader]

What I love of fear is the adrenaline rush it gives me when I do scary or out of the ordinary.

 

 

 

But I hate fear when it just don't let me enjoy, appreciate or living things and stuff that are associated with said fear.

 

 

 

I'm clautrophobic in water which is probably due to a bad experience during my childhood. For example, I'm bathing in a pool and, as long as my head is not submerge underwater, I'm fine. But if I'm splashed, I don't like it and if someone had the bright idea of grabbing me by behind and sink my head underneath water, I'll scramble my way out as fast as possible and the joker's in for a fight. Even if I sink my head myself, underwater, its not for long and I'm still extremely unconfortable. This is my sole phobia and its a real pain to deal with.

 

Your magical style is Dark.

 

What type of Magic do you work?. Take the Magical Style Quiz by Paradox

[Guest Lord Seth Exodus]

Trash my last post, this is getting too good.

 

 

 

Firstly, I dislike this separation of what was and what is in the Christian faith; I think it’s a ludicrous suggestion. The only difference between what was in the Old Testament and what is from the New Testament is our relationship with God. In the Old Testament we were separated from God due to the sin brought into the world by Eve’s deception in the garden of Eden; it was through sacrifices and such that we were able to gain redemption for our sins. In the New Testament, however, all that became unneeded because of one large factor: Christ, his crucifixion, death, and resurrection. Through this, and his being the perfect and ultimate sacrifice, we could have a far simpler, yet not easier, relationship with God.

 

 

 

Now, I fail to see how the fear of God has been “morphed” into anything but what it has always been, and what it is supposed to be; the reverential awe is only part of it. Is it not justifiable to be in awe of the One who has created everything you see about you? “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart;” Jeremiah 1:5 Does that not strike you with awe, respect, and reverence? He created the heavens and the earth, you but to look around and be amazed. I believe, that in this sense, fear and respect go hand in hand. Why do you respect someone? For fear of what they might do when offended.

 

 

 

“God can be both handed? We have established that the definition can extend to both hands, but is this truly the nature of God…?”

 

Yes, very much so, it is the nature of God. He is kind, loving, and merciful; but, at the same time, He is wrathful, jealous, and a disciplinarian. Allow me to expand on this. Though He loves us, He must have a way of “keeping us in line”, if you will. We, as humans, are prone to sin, it just comes naturally to us, therefore God must deal with this with disciplinary actions. In love a parent disciplines their child, not out of hatred, for hope of betterment through knowledge for the child. God’s discipline is corrective, not judgmental. The dictionary definition of discipline is thus: 1. Punishment or disciplinary action for the sake of training. 2. Subjection to rule and authority. It also lets us know who’s in charge. Example: We try to take control of our own lives, leaving God out of the picture, we blow it, send ourselves into despair, God comes along, picks up the pieces, puts us back together along with a much deserved “I told you so, yet I still love you” and thus we realize we need Him to run our lives to have the best possible life. We are taught through his discipline to become better Christians.

 

Now, as for the jealousy bit, can you not see Him being a slight bit annoyed when, after He takes time to create us, and even to send His son to die a horrible and undeserved death for us, we turn around and start worshipping some false idol made of wood; something that is not even alive; or, we forget about Him all together? Would not you be angry as well? He gives us love and blessings and all He wants in return is our love and thanks. So, you can see why he’d be jealous when the credit goes to some piece of wood everyone is bowing to.

 

 

 

“They will get theirs is but an extension of 'An eye for an eye', a biblical quote extolling the competition of rival agendas, which seems to have fallen out of favor over time - no doubt due to our old stand-by belief of eternal damnation for our enemies - which is only taking the fight to the next level”

 

I very much disagree. The fact that the philosophy of “An eye for an eye” has fallen from favor is, again, due to that one great factor – Jesus Christ. In one of his teachings, found in Matthew 5:38-42, he said: “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. (Meaning within a court of law) If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.”

 

Now, I also disagree with the statement that “They will get theirs is but an extension of 'An eye for an eye'” “An eye for an eye” is the statement that if you hurt some they get to harm you back in the same or equal way. “They will get theirs…” is hope in the truth that if they have wronged you in the sight of the Lord you need not worry of getting vengeance on them for they will answer to God when they stand before Him on judgment day; just pray that you, too, are not in the wrong. They are completely different statements.

 

 

 

So, as has been shown, the definition of God has NOT been changed; simply, people see it as such when opinions of God, obviously spoken out of ignorance, are shared.

 

And personally, I don’t think man is going to make it another 5000 years; we’re so screwed up as it is already.

 

 

 

-Lord Seth Exodus

[The Portrait of Zool]

One thing I love about open, accepting sites, such as our beloved Pen, is we're not afraid to talk directly about sensitive matters. NOPE - no dancing around sensitive subjects by raw neurotic ego types around here, since we all know we only have each other's best interests at heart and we never feel threatened by others opinions.

 

 

 

It sure is refreshing.

 

 

 

So keep your eyes off my can Jechum (The worms shall sort themselves out, I'm sure).

 

 

 

Now, even though LSE has fizzed over like the head of a cheap beer I really don't have much to reply. I've checked three other on-line definitions of 'fear', and they all give the 'fear of God' or code-word 'fear of Supreme Power' as a special case, used only in conjunction with divinity, and it equates to 'reverence', not 'alarm', 'anxiety', 'impending dread', or any other real and direct definition having to do with true fear. But if the definition has always been the same, and that's your story and you're sticking to it, (even with the usage of 'fear' biblically connected with jellousy and anger, pointing to a very frightening fear originally) then I guess there's not much I can say.

 

 

 

Now, this is probably my fault, as I was first to raise the 'damnation' card (of course, I raised the 'being against something is ALWAYS a position of fear' position - now we have RESPECTING something is a position of fear, he he he) but it IS the Christian ace in the hole, so to speak, and blammo;

 

 

 

Quote: "...you need not worry of getting vengeance on them for they will answer to God when they stand before Him on judgment day; just pray that you, too, are not in the wrong."

 

 

 

I have to hand it to you, you didn't threaten me directly, but you don't seem worried about getting vengeance on me either. All you need do is invoke the spectre of 'JUDGEMENT DAY' - which is weighted in your favor, of course, as you have true knowledge of the nature of God, unlike me, being a person of ignorant opinions.

 

 

 

And I am an ignorant person. My knowledge, compared to the sum total knowledge of the universe is, shall we say, so small as to be infinitesimally small? I am but a lay person, a schmoe, a fakir of the worst variety. But, I can weigh the words of men, usually being one myself, and I can read a sentence and detect the meanings with a fair degree of accuracy, especially with one or two additional adjectives thrown in to focus my death-fearing IRS-frazzled consciousness. And I can say when someone else says "No, this means something else," that it is, in fact, what it says, modern definitions be damned.

 

 

 

Further, I'll just say directly that I think you are a good person. I like you, and I think you have nothing to fear in the afterlife dept. Of course, I'm no judge. Actually, judging by the difference between our two dispositions (I am a judge!), I am an orange (I yam what I yam, piped Popeye). I DO think man will last 5000 more years. Actually, I think he will last as long as he lasts - I really don't have much preconcieved, but I see no reason to throw him in the toilet and pull the little handle of my opinion just yet.

 

 

 

So I guess that makes your paradyme, my good man, an apple (is that an innapropriate symbology?) while mine is an orange. Is an apple better than an orange? Some would say it is a difficult thing to weigh - though weighing is a great way to measure produce. Speaking of which, every 'proof' you quote to me is from the book of apple, which, while a wonderful book, and I am certainly not against Jesus, is not definitive of oranges. Or grapefruits. Or kumquats. Or evergreens. Or any other variation of vine or fruit.

 

 

 

You may think my analogy silly, but take a look, it's a jungle out there.

 

 

 

And now look - I've quite run on. My apologies. Edited by: Zool47  at: 9/6/02 4:10:12 am