Orlan Posted May 28, 2002 Report Posted May 28, 2002 How about offering the people who dislike the ranking system to drop thier ranks and just be "Member". This allows anyone to choose thier OWN path. If they don't like titles they don't have to have one. If they want a title they can continue on in our ranking system. This would leave the choice up to the individual, instead of one person deciding that Ranks are bad or Ranks are good. This is a suggestion to everyone.
Nyyark Posted May 28, 2002 Report Posted May 28, 2002 Though that seems the diplomat's way, I belive it would add to the division, lack of structure, and confusion that is haunting The Pen. I think its a good idea, I just am not sure if the cure is better than the sickness =)
Canid Posted May 28, 2002 Report Posted May 28, 2002 I have two comments this time... even though I'm still not a member... *Canid grins apologetically.* Regarding critiques... I mean no offence to anyone by this, but I generally only critique works I like, which really completely undermines the suggestion that critiques are making up reasons why you don't like things. Regarding ranks... it was my newbie impression that the rank titles were a) for fun and more importantly, to show a member's specialty. I'll paste from The Codex as an example. Bard: Member who shows exceptional posting abilities and unselfish participation in several areas exemplify The Pen's Standard. Herald: Member who is mainly a commentator, actor and/or role player in their posts. Poet: Member who shows expertise and post mostly in the poetic area. Storyteller: Member who mainly writes yarns and tales. All four descriptions (from the voting member's section) point to the member's specialty; stories, poems, role-playing and people who normally take part in more than one equally.
Lady Celes Crusader Posted May 28, 2002 Report Posted May 28, 2002 Pssst! Its Troubadour, not Storyteller anymore. But anyhow, I agree with Canid about ranking. Here's how I've seen these: Initiate: You're the new kid in town and we need to know a bit more about you before making you a full-fledge member. Page: Congrats! You're a full-fledge member. Continue your writing and implication within the Pen. We wanna know more about your writing style. Quill-Bearer: Let's see how much you want to imput yourself in the Pen. Herald, Poet, Troubadour: Bravo! We decided that you're willing enough to be implcated within the Pen and you let us know through your work what specialty you're aiming. Bard: Nice! You're known to be at home with two particular styles. Elder: The destiny of the Pen is in your Hand. Ancient: The destiny of the Pen was in your hand. You just don't have the time to do it anymore. The main focus is on participation, not genuily on writing. I'm not the most prolific writer among the Pen's member, but I managed to be implicated enough to become a Troubadour pretty quickly. About Nyark's Draft Room: I love the way its organised and I think we should have it integrated in the Pen's board somehow.
Nyyark Posted May 29, 2002 Report Posted May 29, 2002 I always pictured the ranks as something showing that a memeber has grown. This would be comparing the member, to the member. From what I understood growth was one of the the key objectives of the Pen. The other was having fun. I always assumed that people were promoted based on their growth. I am a relatively new member however, and I could easily see how I could be wrong. I think that Ranking is great for showing what stage of growth a member is in. I agree however that this shouldn't cross compare writers. Now if a really really good writer joins The Pen, this means that they would have a much harder time to get promoted. That is the real downfall to this method. As for ranking being administrative, I totally agree. I truly don't think any society can function without role definition, much less a society in which every member is very capable. Nothing gets done, and people get frustrated. Which is why I would like to restate that ranks should be given more specific tasks, or at least a better description, and that the Elders should formulate something like a semblance of government in which to operate. I figure that we are indeed a writing guild, and that collectively we should be able to create a workable system as long as we don't hurt each other too badly in the process. I really think a few pieces of legislature from the Elders to the members would really get The Pen's blood flowing again.
Guest Xradion Posted May 29, 2002 Report Posted May 29, 2002 I agree with Celes about rank. I'm afraid that I'm going to have to disagree with Rezure about critique (but I DO appreciate your comments on my poems). When one criticizes, one should strive to be objective. Obviously, this isn't always easy, but it has to be done if one wishes to provide constructive feedback. You need to look at what's being said, how it's being said, and if the techniques were used consciously and effectively. If there's repetition, for example, is it a deliberate technique, or is it poor word choice? I personally would like to see more dialogue between the writers and readers in this fashion, though I must confess that I too have trouble bringing myself to do this kind of critique. I'm not going to claim that I REALLY know anything about being a good critic, but I would hope that it would be a goal of The Pen not only to produce better writers, but also to produce better critics. This is the goal of most creative writing classes, and in general helps one to become a better writer. If one can see what one likes and dislikes in others' work, it can help improve one's own work. Xradion, The Horny Druid, Scholar of the Ancient Arts, Holder of the Eye of Odin. "The only emperor is the emperor of ice-cream." -Wallace Stevens "When at home, do as the Homans do." –Xradion
Jechum Posted May 29, 2002 Report Posted May 29, 2002 Jechum floats in... I love this, talk about opening a can of worms but then again without worms, what would one fish with? Personally, I've found squid works much better. A circle is as round as a conversation here on "ranks" but a circle has smooth sides. Pro, Con, care, unconcern, need, unnecessary, yin, yang, yadda, yadda, yadda. I'll make a comment... Pen Bards should and have always been more then just masters of two areas of writing styles. In a guild of highly talented writers, they should not only be exceptional word smiths; they should also be selfless comm unity servants. They are the only Title that require a unanimous vote of all the Elders. A tough standard to meet, as it should be, for no-one should ever dought Pen Bards are the Pen's cement. "Nothing exists from whose nature some effect does not follow"-Benedict De Spinoza, Ethics But then again, I don't get a vote. Jechum floats out... Jechum Newbie, Mage of Shadows the Pen is Mightier than the Sword - Ancient Lore
Nyyark Posted May 30, 2002 Report Posted May 30, 2002 Are you saying that unity is a goal at the Pen? I have always wondered if it was. I think then, that unity would be helped much more if the newer members had a better way to acclimate. I find that I am having trouble fitting into the established society, and though I know that I'm not being rejected, it really feels that way sometimes. I have a feeling that I'm not the only one. I know as a Page I should be proving my worth to the Pen, but I wonder if it’s worth it. I'm not sure the Pen is proving its worth to me. I would think that the voting members, especially the bards, would try and help the new members fit in. There are lots of initiates and pages, so I can understand where it would be overwhelming, but it could be as easy as sending an email to a new member telling them you like what they are doing, and you look forward to their future achievements. Its always nice to have a contact on the inside, it makes the Pen seem much less cold and impersonal.
Jechum Posted May 30, 2002 Report Posted May 30, 2002 Jechum floats in... When one fishes, sometimes one catches a fish. All I can say is it's up members to create community, Bards to provide examples, and Elders to provide leadership. Otherwise... The answer my friends is blowing in the wind.... Jechum floats out... Jechum Newbie, Mage of Shadows the Pen is Mightier than the Sword - Ancient Lore
Ozymandias Posted May 31, 2002 Author Report Posted May 31, 2002 Ozymandias reads over the Cabaret minutes with a low whistle and a shamed expression. Whew... I can see where I've got a lot of writing to do. I am very, very, very, VERY sorry for having been so delinquent in my duties the past couple of weeks. The reasons for that have two names: flu, and Holly. Yes, dear fellows, your Loremaster has been playing hooky, cannot speak, and is happily spoken for again. And he'll be on tomorrow morning!!!!!!!! Honest!!!!!!!!!!!!
reverie Posted June 2, 2002 Report Posted June 2, 2002 um, hi... hmm, indecision over ranks and criticism... want of Unity, fellowship, and growth... talk of debauchery as well... new comers left out in cold... disenchantment on edges for high noble type expectations not met... heh, sounds like a normal guild type atmosphere to me... Or maybe we need just some more brainstorming in here... Ya know shake out the cobwebs and whatnot... yellow... sun burn bright... flower of spring whither in summer... doors candles wax... list trip go pip, pip, pip... Go morning to you sir too... All well here... no? rot... why... Can't? Won't! Be what? how... you don't say... Never. oh come on... that's just plain nutz... Why not... 'cause um... Yeah? well, I don't know... yeah.... Flying a plane into the desert... Fly under the shadow of a forgotten mountain... on a hill... on a hill? you can't have a mountain on a hill? Oh really then, how 'bout a hill on a mountain... More like peak then or a mound... Mound? like in burying funerals n'stuff... Yeah... like in burials and funerals n'stuff... Golden effigies all around... climbing high to hang in chestnut trees of gold... before the fall... I lost the thing to this.... why? am listening to beck... oh ic... well stop... Gotta focus... brain the cloud... in fog must clear now... to show what appears... The grey of silver on the edge of a golden sky... hung left out to dry... burn brightly at night and float along a string of watermelon seeds... strewn out akimbo... back and forth to and fro... what do you know.... nothing to show.... hmm, well that didn't help... so much for the right brain... hey, left brain... your in the shoot... go, go, go... Hmm, the question posed at get go... 1. what do we want and need? A. Translation requests or assistance arena to unclutter the french forum... B. Structure... either more or less 1. Concerns on structure superseding writing itself. 2. effects of feedback a)structure: neat, buearacacy, chore, or more concise advice given B ) unstructured: fun, chaos, clutter, easy C. Ranks: refined? defined? abolished... 1 ) Rank = Status A ) Status from raise above or fall below standards... 1 ) Standards vary... ick... 2 )set standards.... a )time?, quality?, empathy? selflessness? skill? b )vote D. Critiques and Criticisms... more or less? 1 ) Encourages a ) shine light... shy open up? B ) workshop type stuff... grow 2 ) Discourages... a ) tears in eyes, run hide under rock writes master work discovered in 2088 neo-emily dickenson. B ) anger... which can lead to grudges... 1 )bad for community 2 )decent catalyst though often misguided... forsakes art of writing, becomes Hitler Well... I'm thoroughly confused... what would bob marley do: "ppls just get to know one another in the spirit of love, and every little thing gonna be alright...." revery the dreamlost...
Justin Silverblade Posted June 2, 2002 Report Posted June 2, 2002 Be careful, all, not to put too much thought into things one may call as improvements. Often thought leads only to disorder. I have been here quite some time, and never been unhappy. Though for that matter, I have never thought of it as a guild. A guild too often brings into the idea of a society. That brings in 'unsaid' rules, and a sudden requirement for democracy or some kind of government. My advice? Easy, keep it simple. We're a bunch of friends who share, read, and comment on original work. That's what we do, no need to define what we are, or how we do it. Let it happen, cap'n.
The Portrait of Zool Posted June 3, 2002 Report Posted June 3, 2002 I'm with Bob. ~Zool~ Ancient, The Pen is Mightier than the Sword. Bard of Terra, Patron Saint of Aspiring Bards. Elder than dirt, more foolish than a jester, able to trip over the smallest logic in a single step. It's... Oh, you know.
Bhurin Posted June 3, 2002 Report Posted June 3, 2002 I, personally, am more than happy with the system/organization around this place. Initially, I thought it merely a writing club for interested (and talented) writers. I get the feed back I expect (sometimes people just don't feel like commenting) and as for rank, I don't need a title to tell me I'm good (I let my publisher do that ). I joined this organization because a friend suggested I do so, and was received very warmly. Since then I've met some incredible people, all of whom share my interest in writing, and greatly appreciate the atmosphere of this place. (In fact, only my recent inhibitions have kept me from being hard core around here. I'll fill you all in when my life slows once more. ) Rounding out my thoughts on why I joined, I should also mention that I very much wanted to rub elbows with some of the more legendary Archmage personas I had only heard of and never met. (Bhurin throws Peredhil, Orlan and Gryfalcon a glance) Some of these people have been 'known' to me for years, but only here was I given opportunity to meet, greet, discuss and share work with them. If you want to know what I think needs improving, my answer is nothing. I love this place, and, should an innovative suggestion or serious complaint arise, I shall remain happy and contented. My only 'observation' would be that currently our format has us one half 'guild' and one half 'free gathering', and we should figure out if that's how we like it. Does rank currently entitle one to privilages? Not from what I've seen... Yet, just a visual confirmation of senority and recognition for talent. My suggestion for a solution: create a nomination system, or a more thorough review system, or something to reinforce the current system. In any case, in closing, I love you guys, and I wrote this post without having read thoroughly the previous posts, so if I've repeated anyone: Tough! Love ya guys.
The Portrait of Zool Posted June 4, 2002 Report Posted June 4, 2002 I feel the love! I agree, as Bob and I remarked earlier. I think Bhurin's comment; "...currently our format has us one half 'guild' and one half 'free gathering'" is right on. We try to be welcoming and open as possible, but actually being a part of this site has wrankled more than a few in the form of that 'not-free gathering'. There are those who are on-again off-again contributors, and there is a group of regulars. The on-again off-again Contributors, or OAOACs, come here because they like to write things, and they like the atmosphere. A lot of the regulars here started as OAOACs, just like I started on the AM UBB. I am somewhat expanding on this issue because I think it is central to attracting new members AND finally putting the age-old rank issue to rest. How to make your above average writing capability EZboard surfer make a home here? I think with Bhurin's distinction in mind, it becomes clear that having someone show up and immediatley asking them to conform to our demands is somewhat in contrast to the "open, welcoming forum" we want them to think we are. Even several of the regular members, having already "jumped through our hoops" have expressed distaste for the mandatory initiation procedures and uniform labeling of title. If you think about it, this problem is inherent in the initial vision of the Pen as an 'Accepting Guild'. In those two words, we have the opposite meanings of 'no-demand' and 'demand' on the member, as Accepting means, well, accepting, and the word 'Guild' infers structure, loyalty, duty and accomplishment. You can't have it both ways, yet as Bhurin has pointed out we DO have it both ways. Orlan has suggested dropping ranks all together, but Nyyark countered that he "belive(ed) it would add to the division, lack of structure, and confusion that is haunting The Pen." Then he went on to ask if "unity" was even a goal of the Pen. Again, our dual nature is laid out before us. No one really answered Nyyark's question - but I put forward that what Jechum meant in his reply was that 'unity' was inherent in the guild-like structure of the Pen. I think it is less a matter of unity, and more a matter of identity. We call this a Guild because that is the RP structure we are all familiar with. However, we aren't here to do battle with anyone, but to provide a place to write, to learn about writing, and yes even to find support for writing in what limited way we can give to each other. What we have is less against anyone, but more for our common interest as a group. We identify in our common interest of writing - that is what it is all about. Again, I think Bhurin's suggestion is right-on, "and we should figure out if that's how we like it". So... Having been to other boards, I see that for someone who initially posts on some of these boards a title can be automatically given, and the title can then be incremented depending on post count on that board. I think for those who are just visiting the Pen, or for OAOACs ( ), this 'ranking system' is fine. It conveys welcome and belonging without really loading any obligation on either side. For those who simply like to write or enjoy participation purely on a surface level, I see nothing wrong with it. Second, for those who have been around a while and decided to do the Quill-Quest and all that, there is the formal joining of the Pen. I move that such membership allow the successful initiate to have his own title. I've talked with other board admins about this, and it really isn't difficult. Lastly, are the actual administrative positions in the Pen. These should have the title structure we have now, with "Bard", Troubador", and all those being Mod positions for various forums, and reflecting their specialty. Comments? ~Zool~ Ancient, The Pen is Mightier than the Sword. Bard of Terra, Patron Saint of Aspiring Bards. Elder than dirt, more foolish than a jester, able to trip over the smallest logic in a single step. It's... Oh, you know.
Nyyark Posted June 4, 2002 Report Posted June 4, 2002 Well Zool, because you only get a vote on higher positions, why not give them responsibilities? I think that it is correct that the Pen is a very lax guild, but making it a social gathering only seems like a mistake. If a person is too low to meet the social gathering's minimum requirements, they are in alot of trouble. I would think the one of the Pen's goal is indeed growth. Now that is what I base almost all of my beliefs on how this community should work. So if that is a disagreed point, I can't debate anything. I think that the Eldership should assign Jobs for voting members. Now I doubt many of the voting memebrs will like that, but they could forfiet teir vote so that they don't have their responsibilities. Maybe another rank? Bleh this is not thought out at all, so If I've said something stupid, I ask for forgiveness.
Falcon2001 Posted June 4, 2002 Report Posted June 4, 2002 Oh well, I like cake, but if we HAVE to talk about ranks... As far as I've seen, every person that's actively writing, whether it's writing 600 page epic novels or a short ditty every week or so is promoted come promotion time. The people that don't get promoted are the people that don't write very often (E.G. Jess, Heart Like a Hole, Me sometimes), or show up OAOA, to use Zool's term. At least I think it was Zool, oh well. What I'm saying is that the post increment thing would be nice, but I also like the current system. I've never complained about rank or something, and I haven't heard a whole lot of complaining either. Course the people I talk to are mainly elders and a few pages that just don't care, like myself, but oh well. So there's my two bits. Cioden Darkeye Quill-Bearer - The Pen is Mightier than the Sword President of the Peredhil Fan Club Owner of the Reply Raven - Enemy to all those who never post responses Ashaman - WoT - Blitz II Council - The Hunters - Blitz II Leisure Officer - SFV Ultima - Beta
Ozymandias Posted June 6, 2002 Author Report Posted June 6, 2002 Firstly, I'd like to say Zool laid out our purpose here beautifully. Thank you, Z for saving me from having to wring that much eloquence out of my own head. -->D"> Secondly, I'll tell all what the two loudest/most frequent complaints I hear are: 1)Commentary clutters writing posts far too often. 2)We Elders are too dang slow getting anything done. Both are very important, I'd say. As the Elder issue, I think what we may need to do is share duties more often; When we're off on vacation have arrange to have somebody specific pick the work, that sort of thing. As for post clutter, what would all of you say to limiting reviews, accolades and general opinions to The Critic's Corner? That's much what it was made for in the first place. Don't worry, nothing will be changed right at this moment. Right now, I'm just throwing out ideas. Titles have never seemed to be that big of a problem to me. I do know there are some who feel very strongly indeed that they need fixing, but beyond a select few, I've not heard anyone complain. Is there anyone I haven't heard? This is something the rest of the Elders and I are giving thought to, one way or another, because minority or majority, we want to alienate no-one if it can be helped. On a lighter note, what, if anything do you think we could use to add to what we're doing here? One suggestion that came to table not too long ago is a "mature" writing area. One for more adult content from coarse language on up. What say the masses? Interesting? Pointless? If anyone wants to e-mail me, its' always in the profile, ensabahnr@hotmail.com, I *will* mail you back. I love this place and everyone in it too. I want to see it and us succeed for a very long time.
Nyyark Posted June 6, 2002 Report Posted June 6, 2002 Re-reading Zool's post I think you AM people have a twisted perception of the word guild =)
The Portrait of Zool Posted June 6, 2002 Report Posted June 6, 2002 That's only half a comment Nyyark. Please, give us your definition. ~Zool~ Ancient, The Pen is Mightier than the Sword. Bard of Terra, Patron Saint of Aspiring Bards. Elder than dirt, more foolish than a jester, able to trip over the smallest logic in a single step. It's... Oh, you know.
The Portrait of Zool Posted June 6, 2002 Report Posted June 6, 2002 Also, Ozy, I would like to redefine the Titles division into those who care, and those who don't care. I rest my case. Also also, what happened to the proposed resolutions about the critic's corner from this thread? pub79.ezboard.com/fthemig...=1&stop=20
Ozymandias Posted June 6, 2002 Author Report Posted June 6, 2002 Almost forgot! For the record, the ranks mean thus (in descending order of importance): 1)Achievement 2)Skill 3)Duty Achievement in the accomplishments you have made with your own particular skills (be it great service to the Pen, learning something new, helping one person, several, really working your butt off in general, etc. That's a bit vague, I apologize. But right now, that's the clearest I've got.) Skill in what we (the Elders) recognize you as being very good at. Certainly not meant as a definition of you or your work, more as praise (they're an incredible poet, moving essayist, etc.). And finally, the higher-ups (beyond Quill-Bearers) have mod priveliges and up. Yep, you get to help run things! MWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
The Portrait of Zool Posted June 6, 2002 Report Posted June 6, 2002 Mod privileges? Ptptptpt! I want, no DEMAND that I be given the secret handshake for the vending machine guy so I can control the content to the machines in the Elder breakroom! THAT'S what REAL POWER is ALL ABOUT! BuaHahahahahahahaha! ~Zool~ Ancient, The Pen is Mightier than the Sword. Bard of Terra, Patron Saint of Aspiring Bards. Elder than dirt, more foolish than a jester, able to trip over the smallest logic in a single step. It's... Oh, you know.
Nyyark Posted June 7, 2002 Report Posted June 7, 2002 I define guild in the sense of a real life guild, where one learns a trade skill. Websters dictionary: Guild: (n) An association or corporation of persons of the same trade, pursuits, or interests formed for their mutial aid and protection, the maintainance of standards, or the furtherence of some purpose; especially in medieval times, a society of merchants or artisans. (from here on, I'm practicing writing for a history paper, so I probably sound pretty obvious, bear with me) Based on this dictionary definition, I'd say I agree with the dictionary. I also say that ArchMage players tend to see guilds as agressive and having an us/them mentality. I think this is because it was a war game. I would like to expand the definition of guild to encompass the other aspects possible with the definition the dictionary presented. Also I disagree with the statement: "We call this a Guild because that is the RP structure we are all family I disagree with this statement because I have never been part of any guild besides this one, if it is a guild. Thus I am not familiar with the RolePlaying structure of a guild. Thus All is not a true statement. This frightens me because Zool is generaly very good with not making generalizations. That he was ingrained with the guild structure so much that he assummed everyone was causes me to wonder about the Pen. Thus My definition of a guild is one of a place to learn. This is supported by things like the dictionary. It does not only apply to wargame guilds, although Zool may think everyone is familiar with that term. If the definition of guild was broadened, The Pen Is Mightier Than The Sword may indeed have an eaisier time defining itself. (pretty good eh? I even magaged a hypocricy, my History teacher loves using those)
The Portrait of Zool Posted June 7, 2002 Report Posted June 7, 2002 Yup. You got me. I used the word all, thus exposing my blatant assumptions and prejudice concerning my compatriots. I might point out, however, when you say "That he was ingrained with the guild structure so much that he assummed everyone was causes me to wonder about the Pen.", are you perhaps doing the same thing, including everyone (= the Pen) ? Tut tut tut... ~Zool~ Ancient, The Pen is Mightier than the Sword. Bard of Terra, Patron Saint of Aspiring Bards. Elder than dirt, more foolish than a jester, able to trip over the smallest logic in a single step. It's... Oh, you know.
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