Yet Another Under-the-Name Doodad?

[Katzaniel]

It has been suggested that, since users of the Pen have varying levels of preference for feedback, that we should have some sort of indicator that's easy to see and shows what sort of feedback the user prefers.

 

Off the top of my head, the cons:

* We already have a feedback description in the profile.

* If we include this, people might not bother to read that description.

* More space taken up by the side panel with names and other information...

 

The pros:

* Nice and easy to see what people want.

* People don't often read the profile description anyway.

* It's clear to new people that they shouldn't roast someone who's only here to share.

 

All right, that seems to about cover it. Discuss!

[Katzaniel]

Note: I looked, and you CAN create a drop-down box for input into those forums. Editting the appropriate spot in the poll...

 

EDIT: Whoever voted already in the option that I just split into two, can you PM me and clarify which one (or both) you'd like that vote in? Thanks.

Edited October 24, 2007 by Katzaniel

[The Portrait of Zool]

I voted yes, but if allowed to specify the type of feedback on the sidebar I myself would put "If you must."

 

Seriously, I am always open to feedback, but don't particularly seek any, as I really just write for fun. That said, I am also always open to discussing how I can improve. So, I wouldn't particularly find it that useful for myself, BUT we are a writing site and as such I can't think of something more appropriate to put in our sidebar - as long as it didn't stand out from the rest of the info too much.

[Ayshela]

Personally, I think that would be more useful than "from" or "member number" currently in the sidebar. I wonder if a link to the appropriate *portion* of the user profile would be useful, as a part of or instead of an additional descriptor?

[Venefyxatu]

I don't think I have a reputation for giving much feedback (if I do, it's undeserved ), but making this information more visible does sound like a good idea.

 

As for how to display it : I'm okay with most choices, except for user-chosen words; while I'm sure this would result in very creative and interesting information, not all of it would be very useful in terms of deriving what feedback is desired. This would result in people still having to check the profile...

 

I chose a default of "No feedback", keeping in mind that it's better to go too soft on someone than too harsh; feelings are hurt (too) easily. "Gentle feedback only" would be a good default choice as well. Come to think of it, that would be a better default choice - not getting any response whatsoever might be off-putting as well. Perhaps I should learn to think before deciding

 

As for a different level for every style : I doubt I'd use it since I stick with roleplay / stories anyway and prefer the same level of feedback for both. However, I can imagine that someone who usually writes, say, stories, but wants to try their hand at poetry would want a more gentle level of feedback for something they're not used to writing.

 

 

There, that's two-and-a-half cent

[Mardrax]

Yes, there should definitely be one. If the only concern is lack of space, there are several things I could think of that would lose in the order of preference. Member No., geld (how long is it since we've even had a carnival? none during my days here anyway) and guild membership graphics, to be specific.

 

I voted to give the user some words to fill in himself, as I don't think that would get the level (or lack thereof, rather) of serious attention that the "From" field tends to get. Otherwise, a little pull down with things to select from might be fine as well. Graphics I'm very wary of, since they eat up space, both physical and in terms of bandwith. And I can't think of good, non-cryptic icons anyway. Just a level 1 through 5 would be a no-go I'd think, as new people wouldn't have a clue what's meant by it. People in general don't mind looking something up, but too much is too much, and if we can limit it, why wouldn't we?

 

About defaults, how about a simple "not chosen yet"? Might provide a stimulus for people to use it.

[Tanuchan]

Didn't register a vote because I had two points in which I couldn't choose any of the options, and it refused to accept blank votes... so here it goes:

 

I think having any indication of the kind of feedback desired that does not demand one to go to the profile to read is good; at least, it is practical and much more useful for us than seeing the member number, for example. Though I'm not sure what would be the best to use... either a standardized drop-down or a few words. Having numbers will probably mean that one has to go find the meaning of those numbers, and then it wouldn't be so different from reading the profile. The problem of drop-down is to find general words that would fit most of our needs; the problem of choice words is that what's clear for one, might not be clear for another.

As for default, I think a blank is ok... or a 'not chosen'.

 

I think good to have separate levels for poems/stories. As Vene pointed out, people who write out of their chosen "area" might want different feedback (either more in-depth so they can improve, or gentler because they're just exploring possibilities). Would I use it? Possibly, depending on the choices available.

[Preprise]

I say put type of feedback desired and not level Levels complicate the thing a little. "I want level 5 but only for the grammar and level 3 for the concept and level 4 for..." What's levels for? What do they mean? Then you got to look up stuff and ... zzz...

 

As a designer I suggest this: box drops down from the "click for type of feedback desired" link that has a small field for inputing text (by user? fill out a form?). Hover box would be much better still. I read a poem, float over the thing 'pop!', read three lines and 'voila', I know what this person is about. Yes some people will input stupid stuff and that's fine they just won't get much feedback because people won't know what they're talking about. The fact that it's editable is very powerful because as they grow in skill or change, the type of feed back might change from grammatical to structural to conceptual etc. for whatever they feel they want to work on. It's not ideal because you don't always know what you should work on and you often need a little rough love to whip you into shape but that's not what the thread is about.

 

So yeah, hover>drop down>input field. That would be smooth usability.

 

 

EDIT: oh and nor separate for stories and poems, that can be specified if desired in the drop down thingy.

Edited October 28, 2007 by Preprise

[Preprise]

another thing that would word is a form for each post that you have to fill out that says stuff like, word count, style, feedback desired.

 

Because some people like harsh on some pieces but gentle on others. With the form thing your required to specify what you want on any given story/poem.

 

Yet another solution is to separate it into threads. Show and Tell where feedback is forbidden and regular where it's just light discussion and finally Show and Hell where you get grilled. Straightforward but unwieldy.

[Patrick]

another thing that would word is a form for each post that you have to fill out that says stuff like, word count, style, feedback desired.

 

Because some people like harsh on some pieces but gentle on others. With the form thing your required to specify what you want on any given story/poem.

That would require coding that form, creating the database that stores all this info, modifying the topic view page so that it shows it, etc...I'm not saying that it's not doable, but I'm not that comfortable with the forum software yet...

[Tanuchan]

Wouldn't it be easier if the author wrote a few lines saying what kind of feedback they want (if they want a specific one at all) as they post? And for in-depth feedback, either post or link to the Critic's Corner. I think that the CC could also be used for poetry, not only for stories... Also, if we make posting for feedback too bureaucratic (filling up forms to indicate clearly what is wished), there is the risk of not having people filling them at all....

 

So, my suggestion would be:

* something under our name/avatar/whatever

* if different feedback is wanted, specify it in the post

* for in-depth critique, use Critic's Corner

 

In this way, we don't need lots of work on the technical aspects of the boards, and we use more what is already there (CC does suffer from underuse, after all).

[Preprise]

I believe we shouldn't think about how this complicates things for admin but how it simplifies it for the members. The doodad under the name thing is simplest for everyone anyway, I just threw some ideas out there - I do that for a living. If you're making people link from her to there then to here and then back to there and so on... you lose them. Take it from the designer. If you put the doodad an inch or 2 from where the mouse is likely to be and near where there is likely to go (the screen name) you'll get much more usage and therefore more usefulness. It'll also separate you from other forums and will increase the likelihood of enticing new members and keeping them around.

 

Take it from the new guy, if I wasn't a designer and a pig headed stubborn guy willing to speak up I would've been gone in 5 minutes when I first checked out this place. But add the doodad and you make a major improvement. It quickly allows you know where you and other people stand (gives a feel for the type of people that hang out here) and it adds interactivity. There are so many advantages. It also facilitates communication and self expression (if it's an editable field), and if I understand correctly, that is an important part of the Pen. The list of reasons why this is an improvement is long and compelling.

 

But this is a sort of democracy so let's see what the votes say. So far we're getting a standardized drop-down. (I'm against the standardized, see above for reasons why)

[Tanuchan]

Just to clarify - I am in favor of the doodad-whatever! However, technical/admin side must also be considered, since all those who take care of the boards do it in their free time. What might be reasonable in a "professional forum/boards" might take a long time to be implemented here, and I think that it's not that difficult to reach a consensus as to what is possible given the time each one of us has available to dedicate to the Pen. As much as we love it, unfortunately RL does take precedence.

[Patrick]

I believe we shouldn't think about how this complicates things for admin but how it simplifies it for the members.

Please consider though that the techy admin isn't a professional IT technician, he takes care of the forum in his free time, is still a student, only pursues PHP and mySQL as a hobby so far and isn't a pro with the forum software which is in no way written by him, but just licensed from IPS...

 

Once you do consider that you'll realise that coding a little box for the post screen would be way, way more time consuming, than using the built-in function of the forum software that allows you to add a custom field into everyone's profile and make this field visible next to each post...

[Preprise]

Once you do consider that you'll realise that coding a little box for the post screen would be way, way more time consuming, than using the built-in function of the forum software that allows you to add a custom field into everyone's profile and make this field visible next to each post...

I know that, now relax. Let me make it clear that adding a custom field into everyone's profile and making this field visible next to each post is the best way to go. That was my idea in the first place anyway wasn't it? That's why this whole discussion started. I do know though that while in the think tank it is best not to reject any ideas even those that may appear complex and impossible at the moment. That's what I meant. Perhaps I expressed myself in a way conducive to being misunderstood.

 

Again for emphasis. Little box n the profile next to each post is the easiest and best way to go.

 

Democracy is pretty but awful slow sometimes...

[Patrick]

Preprise, I was just saying that a little box in the post screen would be too hard to implement and that it is much easier to use a box that is set in someone's profile, since the forum software allows that to be done with tools it provides. I also accepted that it would be shown next to the name, it was just your suggestion of where it should be set that was too hard to make work.

[Preprise]

What? You can't put it under the geld thing? It's just a line of text.

[Patrick]

I'm sorry if what I said could be misunderstood.

 

What I was trying to say was:

 

- it can be placed next to each post instead or under the geld thingy.

- it can be made in such a way that everyone sets it in their own profile

- it can't be made in such a way that you set it for every post you make

[Preprise]

Right-o. So... what are we waiting for?

[Tanuchan]

Some more opinions about the format to use. This is the way things are done here... the poll has been up for less than a week, and not many have had a chance to vote, comment, and give their own suggestions on the topic.

[Venefyxatu]

Right-o. So... what are we waiting for?

Relax, we have all the time in the world. Although that might be the necromancer side speaking up

[Canid]

I have one comment, after voting which is that the default feedback level ought to be left blank until specified, for lack of this option I voted for "Critical is acceptable" as this is what feedback is (to me at least) and I think that most people are careful enough when giving criticism that they aren't going to hurt feelings. Myself, I always try to end a critique on a positive note so the recipient will not feel bad about any criticism I may have offered - I try to start with a complement too for that matter.

[Katzaniel]

I think perhaps, we may also have been waiting for me. And I'm slow

 

The data:

 

Should we have one at all?
Yes	11 or 78.57%
No	2 or 14.29%
Only under some conditions (please explain)	0 or 0.00%
We should have an indicator that isn't the long description, but it shouldn't be visible under the names.	1 or 7.14%
Assuming we have one, it should be:
An image (note that this may be less cryptic than a number)	1 or 4.76%
An image if it can be really really really small	3 or 14.29%
A number (like 2/5)	5 or 23.81%
A word or two - standardized via a drop-down box	7 or 33.33%
A word or two of the user's choice	5 or 23.81%
Assuming we have one, what should be the default? (Approximately...)
No feedback	3 or 21.43%
Only nice feedback	2 or 14.29%
Grammatical feedback only	1 or 7.14%
Gentle feedback	6 or 42.86%
Critical is acceptable	2 or 14.29%
Critical is preferred	0 or 0.00%
Assuming we have one, should we separate off different types of writing? (ie, Stories vs Poems)
Yes	4 or 28.57%
No	10 or 71.43%
Other (please explain)	0 or 0.00%
If there was the possibility of a different level for stories/poems, would YOU use it?
Yes	3 or 21.43%
No	9 or 64.29%
Maybe	2 or 14.29%

 

The conclusions I reach from that:

* Yes, we should definitely have one.

* Images are bad

* Numbers did well enough in the poll but had some good points made against them - I think we can dispense of that option given that we have better, more/just-as-well liked options too.

* We seem decently split on whether 1) People can come up with good enough descriptions if we let them do their own or 2) We can come up with sufficient standards to satisfy everyone. What I'm thinking here is that I'll implement this temporarily with basic phrases in a drop-down box and we'll continue discussion to either fine-tune them or switch to the text box.

* Although Gentle Feedback was a pretty clear winner from the options in the poll, I neglected to include a "no default" option and that seemed to be well-liked, so I think since we're continuing the discussion anyway I'll put up a tie-breaker poll. (Unfortunately, I think that means that I have to start a new thread, so I'll link it here and close this thread so as to prevent as much confusion as possible).

* Although most people said we shouldn't separate types of writing, I saw no real arguments against it, and if we have that high a percentage of people who would or might use it, then I'm going to go ahead on that for now.

 

New thread

Edited November 5, 2007 by Katzaniel
Included the link