A Discussion

[Canid]

Canid pokes her nose in the door.

A word on censorship, if I may...

 

Some censorship is necessary on the Pen. What is really in question every time this topic comes up is the degree to which that needs to take place. The moderators keep our boards free of profanity, rude, distasteful and derogative posts, and spam.

It is to that censorship that we owe our clean and friendly boards, as well as the very trusting and open community The Pen has always fostered.

That moderation, carefully applied allows us to discuss sensitive issues and personal opinions that many of us Pennites are not comfortable sharing anywhere else on the web. We trust the moderators to remove posts that start offering belittling opinions on other people's opinions....

Someone may dwell on the Pen for years adding to our library and fulfilling the goals of our Standard without ever writing an application. One of the nice things about the Pen is that "guests" are just as free to express themselves as regular members. They can jump right into our community without fear of rejection.

For members who are uncomfortable sharing something with the general public, there is a forum in The Courtyard for them to post in, but this is for the privacy of the member, rather than the benefit of the public.

 

Discussion, and even debate, is a form of literature. A high form. It can be eloquent, educational and thought provoking. Unfortunately, it can also get nasty. Even when it doesn't, it often makes people uncomfortable and upset.

Allowing it is basically a trade off. Moderation (read censorship) is fully capable of preventing these threads from degenerating into a flame war, but not from making people uncomfortable with the opinions expressed.

Changing the author's direction for a thread is just as much censorship as changing the content, it decreases the likelihood of an inflammatory debate, but the topic is what is in question, so should we censor it at all?

 

Taking the view that discussion and debate are indeed forms of literature, it is this Pennite's opinion that if it would be accepted it as a poem, or a theme in a story, we should accept it as a discussion as well.

We must be respectful here, as anywhere else in life of other people's opinions and belief's, as strongly as we may disagree with them.

I, as always, leave it to the moderator's to make sure any topic, poem or debate, stays in that spirit.

[Ayshela]

(replying in reverse order)

Bless you, Canid. *gentle hugs* Clearly, comprehensively, and respectfully stated. I wish I'd done half so well. =)

 

People are attacking others over something that should have sparked up a decent, intelligent discussion. Possibly a debate, but not this.

Not all the disagreement is attack, however. Most of us do remember the basic rules of engagement, and discuss ideas, choices, words - but not people or personalities. What someone says or does is open to discussion, but who someone IS is not. Namecalling in any form is never appropriate, here or anywhere else.

 

 

Zool - wow, you said I had a way with words? At first, that looked like one of the most impressively determined misinterpretations of what I said that I've seen since I left the kids' dad! Oz let me know, however, that how that *read* may well not have been what was *meant* so I'm forging ahead taking that as read. Some of this does need clarification, though, because it's important that it *not* be misunderstood. To that end, I'm going to quote several sections so I can make sure I'm responding to what was actually said, not trusting to my memory and thus responding to what I think you said. Apologies beforehand for the inevitable length.

 

Wow Ayshela, you certainly do have a way with words! Where I speak of 'opening the context', and Whisky calls it 'turning it into something else' you see CENSORSHIP. Nowhere do I say anyone *can't* write about something, though you do put those words in my mouth, completely disregarding my point that we have been in fact discussing what Whisky came here to talk about. I have only asked that any topic be topical to our activities here.

 

Why would that be so disturbing to you?

censorship - "to suppress or delete as objectionable" - yes. One thing which does seem to have been completely missed in all the "he said, she said" of this is that the original objection, while followed up on by a fellow member, was made *by an Elder*. Meant or not, that carries an additional weight because you have one of the forum mods coming in and saying we don't post stuff like this here. Just the request of a new member of not posting the topic, requested by anyone, would be discouraging enough. Made by a mod, that's generally read as a gentle reminder of the rules and a "don't do that again." We don't post "stuff like this" does directly state that it is objectionable and unwanted. I see where the emotional objection to the word censorship is - it makes me as twitchy as plaigarism - but where it is, it is.

 

Changing "the wrapping" of the post so that the objective behind bringing that story here was completely disregarded and focus diverted to something else instead does *not* negate the fact that simply asking for people's thoughts on the material as originally presented was objected to. The same "story" was presented, yes. The same objective was not.

 

I really wanted to bring her plight to the boards cause It is a very important issue. Your thoughts?

And that is what has recently inspired me, so what inspires you to write, or paint or even something that gets you up in the morning, anything

We have NOT been talking about what Whisky came her to talk about, because we've been talking about inspiration, NOT about what people think about the material presented. Different things, *because* the original post was somehow objectionable. She was unable to ask what she wanted *because* the wrapping had been changed.

 

it was just that I could not get what I wanted out of the topic which was seeing the opinions of others on the board about it. It was not censored so much as it was turned into something else.

That any of us, mods or members, feel free to tell someone who has presented a discussion topic IN the right place AND in a very respectful manner that what they've done is objectionable - yes, I do find that disturbing. (After all, the Cabaret has long been labeled as the place for General Discussion - nothing more specific. There have been those in the membership and among the moderators who have felt differently, but the room description still reads nothing more specific than this: "Here one can have a drink and idly chitchat with a friend.") Some people are uncomfortable with such discussions - true enough. Yet no one is forcing anyone to read every thread in every forum here. The freedom to skip discussions we're uncomfortable with remains. Preemptively telling any of our posters - member, guest, mod, whoever - that their respectfully handled topic is objectionable and it must be changed (or re-wrapped) to be acceptable - that frankly makes my skin crawl. I've disagreed with that tendency since I first fell in these gates almost four years ago. I do understand the desire to protect the membership from flame wars and raging arguments on the boards. I don't think that's a misplaced urge on the part of ANY mod. I do think it is misplaced to preemptively determine that that is, of course, what is inevitably going to happen. And even more misplaced for that to lead to those topics being completely disallowed (whether it's deleted, diverted into something "inoffensive", or acted on in some other way).

 

Should we change the name of the Pen to 'The MOUTH is mightier than the sword!? Instead of writing, should we just talk, talk, talk, in an unending circle jerk of opinion and counter opinion? Where is the creativity in that?? One wonders why anyone should come to the Pen at all when there are thousands and thousands of sites where anyone is welcome to say whatever they want.

 

Where is that in our standard, I wonder?

 

We the posters of posts in order to form a more perfect society that can cut across all boards, establish good fun, ensure values, increase board tranquility, provide common sense, promote humor, and secure the development of good writing, do ordain and establish the Society of "the Pen is Mightier than the Sword". Our primary goal is to create a family of posters who by working together can nurture growth and encourage creativity for all, by all.

"talk, talk, talk, in an unending circle..." no, that would be silly. =) However, I don't at all understand why discussion is out of place **in the general discussion forum**? There have been so many discussions shut down in the name of "we're a writing board. we only discuss things related to writing." that we now have members who don't know each other well enough to be comfortable participating in activities! How is THAT doing any service to our membership? We can discuss movies, or our opinions of the latest concert we went to, what our favourite writing implement is, or what our favourite CANDY is, for heaven's sake - and somehow that's all right. But discussing ideas, events, the beliefs and convictions which shape what and how we write - that's inappropriate anywhere? I don't get it. How are we supposed to get to know each other if we *can't* talk about anything more significant than candy, movies, and concerts? Not because anyone will overtly *say* it's not allowed, but because every time someone tries to the thread is shut down? Will someone please explain how that even makes sense? Because I just don't get it.

 

Where is *that* in the standard?

 

As far as discussion of this and similar topics - it's right there. "Our primary goal is to create a family of posters who by working together can nurture growth and encourage creativity for all, by all." A family is not a collection of people who barely know each other. Personal growth comes from being exposed to new ideas and new ways of thinking, as well as developing skills in interpersonal interaction. All of this blends with active writing and critique to encourage growth as a writer.

 

Isn't that what we're here for?

[The Portrait of Zool]

Ayshela, I am very gratified to see you addressing the points in my purposely opinionated post. It's one thing to talk about 'honest, open, uncensored discussion', and quite another to do it. (I understand it was pretty unsettling to some, and for that, and my at times unconventional way of making a point, I take full responsibility, and sincerely apologize. Believe me, my bark is worse than my bite. ) I sincerely appreciate your seeing beyond the objectionable opinion and tenor, and honestly, openly, discussing it.

 

Speaking of the original objective, what I was 'objecting to' is the same thing that has been objected to here at the Pen for years. It almost seems as though what I was expected to do was go counter to years of Pen policy - that I was actually somehow expected to spontaneously set Pen policy! I would, of course, never do that. This is a membership run site - I do not set Pen policy, the membership does.

 

Ayshela, you make your points eloquently and convincingly. More importantly, however, has been the large public outcry asking for - you guessed it - general discussion at the Pen! I think that's pretty clear. As I said, it is a membership run site. Ask, and you shall receive.

 

And one other thing - for those who wish to see change in the Pen, there is a method in place to do so. Start a thread, build a referendum - get a vote on the matter! It really is that simple.

 

And thank you, Ayshela. Once again, I must ask forgiveness, and hope that I have not sufficiently damaged your opinion of me to make it difficult. If it means anything, your response, as explained above, has given me a great respect for you. I fully appreciate the difficulty of rational calm in the face of strong emotion, but you have proved yourself to me.

 

Thanks, and apologies, again,

-Z

[Sweetcherrie]

err... I couldn't finish reading this out of annoyance..

 

Isn't it slightly blown out of proportions, and are people not all fingerpointing now, where really we all know that nobody around here would ever mean it like others seem to understand it? o_O

 

Get back to trusting your fellow pennites in wanting to do best for everybody perhaps...

[Gwaihir]

If it helps, Sweet, I'm pretty sure they all bark louder than they bite.

 

I would say "men!" , but Ayshela might notice that she's not a men, so I won't.

[Ayshela]

*shrug* sometimes, to be fully resolved, things must be SEEN to be resolved. There have been previous objectios TO things being taken to private discussion and left hanging with only the disagreement in public but no sign of the resolution. I think that's a fair point, and have no wish to leave anyone seeing only the negative, only the misunderstanding, ONLY the misinterpretation, of any of us. Sometimes that means things get thrashed through, kicked apart and put back together, out in public. For those who are uncomfortable with that - I'm sorry. FWIW, the only thing being kicked apart and put back together here is the issue - never each other. =)

[Yui-chan]

Allow me to summarize, then, the resolution as it seems to be shaping up in this particular debate.

 

We agree that a friendly and comfortable environment is still the goal of the Pen boards, but we assert that it is possible to maintain such while allowing political, religious and otherwise controversial debates to proceed without the here-to-fore required shroud of creative expression. That is, we no longer wish to discourage bald-faced controversial commentaries so long as their conversations remain civil.

 

Am I understanding correctly? Is this an appropriate statement of the desired policy change?

 

Dotting t's and crossing i's,

~Yui

[Ayshela]

Bless you, Yui. I, for one, would happily get behind that revision and help push if necessary! =)

 

*thankful hugs*

[Quincunx]

Rydia sits in the middle of the That Look lineup, bending an extra-sharp eartip towards a block of soft rubber. Bits of eraser-like debris sprinkle out of the cavities her ear cuts into the block. Much later, she puffs air into the completed carving, applies it to an inkpad, and then to the discussion:

 

General reading level: Comfortable.

Roleplaying swaddling still recommended for delicate egos.

Once again safe to mix fact and opinion in a post.

Once again safe to make remarks after the perfect time for them is past.

Still not safe for passive aggression.

'Safe'=unlikely to be misinterpreted as hostility.

 

With that done, she massages her overextended pointy ear and turns the lineup into a tea party complete with cream cakes (yes, we still have pre-Lent cakes left over, help me go through them, please!)

[GeldrinHor]

*blink*

 

*blink*

 

 

 

We....ummm....discuss things in here??? <scratches head contemplatively>

 

 

 

Wow.....I am really GLAD I never entered into this discussion.....tough room...

 

 

 

Actually, to be honest, I FOLLOWED this discussion, but never even ATTEMPTED to render an opinion, as I am a religious freakazoid, and a Political leper.

 

 

 

I will also be open about this....I don't discuss religion, due to a complete and utter lack faith in a man-derived state of interpretations by hundreds and hundreds of different versions of ONE book.

 

So now, I am Pagan...LOL

 

 

 

I don't like to .discuss Politics, as I started off a Republican at age 18 in 1980...and yes, I voted for Reagan, gods help us all, then became Democrat in 1992 (Slick Willie be damned) and now my political persuasion is somewhere between disgusted and depressed...

 

 

 

HOWEVER....I did enjoy reading the varying degrees of certainty that many of the opinions displayed, and must admit to feeling that, even through all the bashing and banging of the subject, a good thing came out of this "objectionable or not" debate.

 

 

 

I would like to THANK each and every opinion and poster for a lively, and yes sometimes, smoky debate.

 

It has opened many eyes that may have, for one reason or another, been squeezed tightly shut, but it also got the rusty old guys in the front office up and shambling around their desks again.

 

 

 

All this was VERY enlightening AND entertaining, as I would MUCH rather watch a debate or Poetry reading, or childs' spelling bee than plop myself down to watch the ever-phony pugilistic pursuits of 250 lb men in tights who scream at cameras and throw their opponent to the mat. Much more fun to watch a metaphoric wrestling match....really, it is!

[The Portrait of Zool]

*Zool had been determined to stand back and let more enlightened opinions expound - but just can't resist GeldrinHor's wonderfully adroit explication.*

 

Grinning broadly, Zool steps forward, takes a deep bow, then steps to the background once again.

[reverie]

Hey guys. sorry I've been away. Weird story. Like, some how I got this idea in my head to take a lot of extra projects on since my course-load was considerably lighter this semester. So, I went for this independent study abroad project in Macau Special Administrative Region (SAR) of the People's Republic of China (PRC) based solely on my ability to speak Portuguese (which I can do only on the most elementary of levels), never minding the fact that only a small faction of the population in the SAR has not, as of yet, decided to adopt Cantonese as the real official language, and guess what I don't know a word of Cantonese. Oh I tried Mandarin once, but God that almost killed me. At any rate, while doing the interview and prep for this project, I decided to embark on another quest for equally doting independent 9 week research fellowship which would involve me writing a historical fiction novel of the history of capoeira in Brazil based solely on my ability to write poetry and speak Portuguese. See any disconnects there? Me too. And man is ever hard to compensate when your trying to convince an academic committee of accomplished individuals to fund your project anyway. That said, I decided I needed a little of time off, so I agreed to participate a fund-raiser to raise money for these kids that wanted to go to Mexico to help out indigenous kids over their speak-break holiday. Anyway, it's Latin-night, so we got salsa dancers, break-dancers from Mexico, my local capoeira group representing Brazil, some really cool acoustic guitars songs in Spanish I don't understand, but are cool anyway. It's cool we raise a bunch of money, so the kids get to go help the other kids. But then the salsa lessons started, and mind you, I've taken salsa lessons before (don't worry I suck), but still ball-room salsa ain't the same are real salsa, so I figured what the hell. I'll jump in there. Sure, why not. So as I'm making a fool out myself on the dance-floor so some kids can get go help out some other kids in Mexico, I notice two lonely looking people from my capoeria group kind of looking all wall-flower-ish at the edges. Now, I've been the wall-flower. I could write you a how-to guild on how-to-be-a-better wall-flower, and honestly it hurt me a little to see people I consider my friends looking so forlorn, and yeah you get the picture. So, I go up to Impala (that's her nick-name...like the car...everyone gets a nick-name... mine's tartaruga--it mean tortoise), and ask her, "Hey, ya dance?" and she gets all defensive and guarded and basically gives me that go-to-hell look, which almost makes me wish I would have asked pajama first, but then again I don't dance salsa with guys. Okay, I'm cool. Tried to a good deed, it backfired, whatever. Next night, I'm off playing a game (we don't fight or spar, we play) against Impala in the Roda (circle) of Capoeria and just as I'm getting into it I catch a "chapa" (a side kick with a wind-up...sort of like round-house, but you push instead of hook at the end) in the face. Oh, I'm sure it was just an accident, but that would make that the third accident like that this month (different girl, longer story...I wrote poem about her in the workshop). Next thing ya know, I'm in the Emergency room getting a CAT scan--ya know those things are really kind of fun. They tingle a little and the tube with lights spins, spins, and, spins AND the really nice doctors put stickers up everywhere for you look at so you don't accidentally look into laser beams that fry out your eyes. Yeah, good times. Anyway, turns out nothing broken, just my pride. So, they send me on my way with a prescription of vicoin. And oh my god does that stuff work. I have no tolerance to drugs people, none. I don't drink, smoke, and I'm not really that big on caffeine either. So for the rest of the week, I'm flying. What happened? Not really sure. Anyway round a 'bouts last Thursday, the viconin runs out. And damned if wasn't masking the onset of the flu. Oh boy, knew I should have got that flu-shot. Apparently, I picked it up in the Emergency Room. ...so, my fever's finally broke. Tamifu really does work. It's not just myth. Dang expensive though. Also, apple make great flu-food. Oh man, that combination of moistness and texture is just what you need when you can't keep anything else down.

 

In other news, I'm on the short list for the Macau project, and though the Brazil one, is still possible, I'm feeling a little burned out at the moment, so I might not make the deadline. My sponsoring professor pulling out me the day I came off of viconin didn't help either, but I found a replacement with 24 hours depite the fever, and coughing and yeah blah, blah, blah.

 

So, what's been going on? Looks like y'all been having a discussion. Forgive me if I don't take part. I've got a world to change.

 

 

best of luck,

 

revery

the dreamlost

"all you want to do is something good, so get ready to be ridiculed and misunderstood." (a. mann)

the dream continues...

Edited February 25, 2007 by reverie

[Peredhil]

Peredhil politely and gently curses his limited time at keyboards.

 

If I'm remembering correctly, Ozy Zool and I pretty much met in a discussion over the significance of upside-down crosses at the Archmage game. When the public thread was getting too much static to continue communication, we exchanged marvelous emails.

 

Historically-minded Peredhil

[The Portrait of Zool]

I remember. What a historic discussion that turned out to be.

[reverie]

Oh, I forgot to mention, the good doctor tells me that one of the side effects (although rare) of the medication that I'm currently on is confusion. What the heck is that supposed to mean? You kind of have to qualify a statement like that ya know. Oh great, starting to hallucinate. I don't know if it's the prescription meds, too much cough syrup circulating through my blood stream, or exhaustion, but things don't seem as they should be. hmm, okay pull yourself together rev, you been here before. Just don't let your eyes unfocus for more than two seconds, or close your eyes, put on sun-glasse, or walk into a dark room, or look at any wook-grain paneling and you'll be fine. That's just great. Such much for finishing that mid-term.

 

rev...

 

 

**kind of makes hard to edit too**

Edited February 25, 2007 by reverie

[The Portrait of Zool]

Ack! So sorry to hear about your tribulations rev - Do take care of yourself!

[GeldrinHor]

Heya Rev....I know what you mean about the effects of Vicodin. Unlike yourself, I have a much higher tolerance to prescription strength drugs, but Vicodin is a pain-reliever extraordinaire. As some may remember, I hurt my back at work last month, which gave me the need for vicodin, and allowed me the time to be home while I recovered. The hallucinations ARE inconvenient at times, but tolerable. And, like yourself, I caught a bug...tho mine was basically a VERY mild flu (14 hour fever, broken, then 36 hours of ick, and I was all better). But, unfortunately, it brought back the sinus migraines I suffer occasionally too.

 

Now, I am being processed by Unemployment so I at least have some kind of income while I fight off my problems and await the return of my wife (aka The Nurse!). Also, until I am allowed back out or my sinus/sleep apnea issue becomes too untenable, I will sit home each day. my next deadline is March 8th.

 

 

 

So I CAN and do know how ya feel.

[reverie]

**High fives Geld** oh yeah sure no problem. I'm just weird man.

 

 

Life is a roller-coaster: hang on.

 

 

rev...

[Ozymandias]

Rev: You really should set about writing your life's story. I'd buy ten; one for me, nine to hand out to friends who'd also appreciate. I'm serious!

 

All:

 

Well, I *was* going to add something all deep, and meaningful, and...yeah. Then GeldrinHor, Zool, Tzim, Yui, Pered and Ayshela all stepped up and said almost everything I wanted to say (*and* answered all the questions I was gonna ask!). You even all said it so much better than I'll be able to for years to come. Drat you, one and all. \;>)

 

Truly, folks: many thanks. You're all more boon to me and those around you than you know.

 

Two bits that should still be said: Yes, The Cabaret Room *is* open to general discussion. No spamming, please. I will personally get very aggravated at you if you spam.

 

Domo arigato, and keep on truckin'.

 

~

[Ozymandias]

P.S.-

 

Let me not forget Mardrax, Tanny, Whisky, Nightfae, Sweetcherrie, Canid, Finnius and reverie- for all of you inspired me in this discussion and beyond to keep going, no matter how much I wanted to tear my hair out.

 

...

 

Brownies for everyone!!!!

 

(I'm a sucker for a happy ending. Speaking of which, I hope you recover speedily, rev.)

 

 

~me again~

[reverie]

Ozy. Thanks. Am feeling much better, but am still a little weak. Probably take another weak to get my endurance back. Brains good though.

 

Oh and regarding the book, I'll give the same answer my other brother used to give me, "I don't have an ending yet." My life was boring by comparison. And we grew up in the same house!

 

[Ayshela]

Now, see, THAT is why you do as Piers Anthony did, and write it in at least two books.