A Discussion

[The Portrait of Zool]

It is an inspiring story, though we rarely post stuff like this because it is a creative writing site, and what we would really like to see are are original creative works of yours.

 

 

 

EDIT: This thread was removed from Something I wanted to share and Inspiration.

 

What can I say? Lotta topic drift we've made.

 

~Ozymandias~

[Whisky in Babylon]

I know, the point of it was to spark a discussion to get people to think which is why I did not think it was too out of place.

[reverie]

What you have to understand, is that's it's all about writing and friendships made here. Most of us try to leave our politics, various religious views or what have you at the door (with varying levels of success) preferring to express those emotions in our art. We don't flame here, and discussions like this, innocent as they may seem at the beginning invite that sort of behavior. It takes a while to get used to it, but we've been around for years, and seems to have worked so far.

 

So by all means share with us, but share it in your work or in private messages. Once you get to know us a little better, there are a few private forums within pen where something like this would be more appropriate, but even there it's not up for debate, it's just a place of sharing.

 

kudos,

 

rev...

Edited February 10, 2007 by reverie

[Whisky in Babylon]

I never put it up to have it be a debate, I just wanted to share because it could very well inspire someone to write a story about it, like I will probably do, also I thought it tied in well in the fourm to show that us as writters have such a huge opertunity to change the world and spark the question. But I am sorry if it really is out of place.

[reverie]

no need to defend yourself.

 

but here's an idea.

 

Create a thread with the Title like: "What inspires me/you?"

 

Similar to that "Things I have Learned" thread that still kicking around. Post what you posted here as something that did inspire you, then invite other to post what inspired them.

 

see, it's easy. It's all in the wrapping.

 

[The Portrait of Zool]

Excellent idea rev!

 

That would be a way that Whisky could share the story (which is inspiring!) and at the same time it would be appropriate for every Pennite to share and discuss.

 

Edit: thread continued at http://www.patrickdurham.net/themightypen/index.php?showtopic=15274

[Ozymandias]

Whisky, a disclaimer for you, first: what I'm about to say is probably quite inflammatory, but under the circumstances in which this thread was created, if nothing else, I decided it was only fair and rational to put this here, instead of a new thread.

 

In other words, I'm probably going to get people very mad and/or hurt here, and it's no reflection on you.

(and so far I really like the way your mind works, btw.)

 

 

What this thread inspired me to was ire and sadness. When I read your initial thread, Whisky, I was rather pleased. Then I read the replies made to it, and that changed.

 

Zool, reverie, I couldn't disgaree with you more. At surface level, the points you brought up sidestepped all of those folks who really only feel comfortable giving intimate information (which most written work for most writers IS, in whole or in part) to people they know. How do you get to know someone? Spend time with them, surely (which each of you already included in your opinions/suggestions). But what's also absolutely vital to learning more about someone? Talking to them. About anything, or everything. If we were to impose limits on what subjects are permissible and which are forbidden, I get an Orwellian itch, y'know?

 

Politics and religion are two of (if not THE two) the most emotionally charged and thus most easily destabilized discussions any two people can ever have. And yet, do these not form the framework of our day to day lives? Be you Republican, Democrat, Whig, Buddhist, Muslim...all of this has an indelible and fundamental connections to how we perceive our world, to our morals even.

 

And it's being suggested that we as a community should pretend they're not there??? That it's okay, so long as no one sees, or hears? Come ON! Are we writers, or are we mice? These are things that not only are major portions of our lives, but our audiences' too! The POINT of writing is communciation. You want to reach your audience, but want to refuse your education in these universal matters? Even in so small a portion of everyone's lives as this site is, that's still tantamount to being a native english speaker traveling the world, and impatiently waiting for everyone else to learn english.

 

 

I've seen such censorship being comitted here before, years ago, and when I saw that it hadn't happened for years after that, I assumed that it was gone; that we'd grown out of it. We all know what happens with assuming.

 

Please don't do this.

[The Portrait of Zool]

I'm glad you bring this up Ozy. Truth be told, this has been brought up several times of late, and this is an ideal opportunity to discuss it.

 

I really can't disagree with anything you say. OF COURSE we are a community, and OF COURSE community is built through sharing our views and our lives. Who could argue with that? Who would argue with that? I don't, nor will I ever.

 

And we at the Pen do that all the time. We do it on IRC, and we do it in PM - and we do it on our private members only forum, away from public eyes PRECISELY because these matters can be so divisive and inflammatory. Precisely because of that we do it privately, in an environment of trust and acceptance, away from the indifference, ham-handedness, or even outright hostility that always seems to come with such personal openness at a public forum.

 

The community is there, the openness is there, cherishing all views and all manners of sharing for those willing to take the time and make the effort to make the connections they are comfortable with. For anyone else, who just wants to pull up their soapbox and shout over the crowd, well, there are a thousand sites for that. The Pen, however, has a slightly different, more personal and productive focus, IMO.

[Whisky in Babylon]

Thank you for that Ozy

Edited February 20, 2007 by Whisky in Babylon

[The Portrait of Zool]

I also appreciate what Ozy wrote, as I said Whisky, and appreciate that he felt you were being "censored"

 

In my own defense, I beg you consider why I consider it to not be censorship at all. Honestly, you went on to post virtually the SAME post and subject matter, and it was accepted, even discussed and lauded! All rev and I asked was that you put it into the context of SHARING information and what you found inspiring about it, with an invitation for others to do likewise.

 

Are you still sure I should schedule that swastika tatto?

 

We all love Ozy to death - part of the reason he founded the Pen was his exhuberant nature and love of people. I'm not surprised at all he came and saw the situation and stuck up for you - but censorship? Really?

 

Whisky, if you felt wronged or harrassed, I sincerely apologise. I'm sure I speak for rev also (correct me if I'm wrong) in that was not our intent at all. Keeping you from bringing the subject to the Pen was not our intention either. We just wanted to keep it in an open context - go ahead and share - it is, as I have said repeatedly, an inspiring story - but do so in a topical context that likewise invites everyone else to share too.

 

I hope that at some point or in some way you can understand our aim, and will be at peace with it.

 

Hopefully, many others will give their opinion on what Ozy has brought up, especially those who might have felt similarly wronged, and we can get this all out in the open.

[Whisky in Babylon]

Oh I by no means felt harassed just a little put off, but I do understand what you are saying, and its all really put behind me.

 

And it was not that you and rev were against the subject I know that, it was just that I could not get what I wanted out of the topic which was seeing the opinions of others on the board about it. It was not censored so much as it was turned into something else.

 

But theres no hard feelings

 

So lets get on with the inspiration!

[The Portrait of Zool]

Thanks Whisky, I appreciate your forgiving nature. It is indeed inspiring.

 

As it sits everyone has the choice to speak to your example specifically, or to speak more generally. I may not have said so directly, but the first paragraph in my original response above was directly addressing what Irshad Manji was doing and my opinion of it.

 

Thank you again for sharing.

[Ayshela]

it was just that I could not get what I wanted out of the topic which was seeing the opinions of others on the board about it. It was not censored so much as it was turned into something else.

And THIS was what disturbed me about the whole thing. "it's all in the wrapping" is a fair point, but there's a clear difference between a discussion of what someone else is trying to do and a discussion of what inspires you, personally. The post was nearly identical - true. But since the "wrapping" was different, what was asked was different and the trains of thought the audience was directed toward was different. The information was there, but the *point* no longer was.

 

As for the issue of censorship - isn't it? In saying we don't discuss Topic A or Idea B here, we're writers so these aspects of life are inappropriate here, isn't that censorship?

 

From Merriam Webster:

 

Main Entry: censor

Function: transitive verb

Inflected Form(s): cen·sored; cen·sor·ing /'sen(t)-s&-ri[ng], 'sen(t)s-ri[ng]/

: to examine in order to suppress or delete anything considered objectionable ; also : to suppress or delete as objectionable

 

Having a specific place for specific types of writing is one thing - stories here, poetry there, roleplay over there - even PG-13 back in *here* doesn't say "you can't write about *that* here." Since the Cabaret IS the discussion forum, it was even in the right place, as well as inoffensively presented. Saying we don't talk about things like that here - personally, I've heartily disagreed with and disliked that policy since the last such discussion thread which was summarily closed. I objected then, and I object now.

 

We are a community of writers seeking to improve our skill and hone our craft. What writers *do* is write about life and the living of it, in whatever setting or characters we choose. Avoiding fundamental aspects of what shapes who we are and how we think only limits our ability to grow and develop - as people AND as writers. Should such subjects be handled carefully, with a solid grasp of respect for each other and differences of opinion? Absolutely. Should they be avoided? I don't believe so.

 

Part of what people have been wanting from the Pen has been open discussion. This was a splendidly opened opportunity for discussion branching into several avenues. If we don't permit *this* discussion because it might make someone uncomfortable, what WILL we allow? <_>

[Finnius]

I can't really add anything that wasn't said in the post directly above me, but I would like to add an emphatic agreement with 'Shela.

 

I understand that some topics can potentially be offensive or inflamatory. This one, especially in the clear, realistic, and rational way it was presented, is not. Besides which, we are for the most part adults here, and those that aren't have consistently impressed me with their ability to behave as such.

 

(Really, I'm only 24, and I very much remember being younger. I could grasp difficult concepts then, and I still can now.)

 

Either way, I'd be against closing or changing a topic unless and until it actually crosses the line into being offensive.

Edited February 21, 2007 by Finnius

[The Portrait of Zool]

Wow Ayshela, you certainly do have a way with words! Where I speak of 'opening the context', and Whisky calls it 'turning it into something else' you see CENSORSHIP. Nowhere do I say anyone *can't* write about something, though you do put those words in my mouth, completely disregarding my point that we have been in fact discussing what Whisky came here to talk about. I have only asked that any topic be topical to our activities here.

 

Why would that be so disturbing to you?

 

Should we change the name of the Pen to 'The MOUTH is mightier than the sword!? Instead of writing, should we just talk, talk, talk, in an unending circle jerk of opinion and counter opinion? Where is the creativity in that?? One wonders why anyone should come to the Pen at all when there are thousands and thousands of sites where anyone is welcome to say whatever they want.

 

Where is that in our standard, I wonder?

 

We the posters of posts in order to form a more perfect society that can cut across all boards, establish good fun, ensure values, increase board tranquility, provide common sense, promote humor, and secure the development of good writing, do ordain and establish the Society of "the Pen is Mightier than the Sword". Our primary goal is to create a family of posters who by working together can nurture growth and encourage creativity for all, by all.

Let's see, perhaps instead of "...establish good fun, ensure values, increase board tranquility, provide common sense, promote humor, and secure the development of good writing...", what it SHOULD say is "establish contention, ensure conflict, throw out board tranquility, provide strong opinions, promote hostility, and, (most important of all, perhaps?) let anyone post whatever they want whether it has anything to do with promoting good writing or not".

 

And THIS was what disturbed me about the whole thing. "it's all in the wrapping" is a fair point, but there's a clear difference between a discussion of what someone else is trying to do and a discussion of what inspires you, personally. The post was nearly identical - true. But since the "wrapping" was different, what was asked was different and the trains of thought the audience was directed toward was different. The information was there, but the *point* no longer was.

The context of the discussion was changed, though the subject remained, for ( I repeat) anyone to remark on as they saw fit. Please explain to me Ayshela, or anyone, what *point* was lost there?

 

You are quite right, brave detractors, putting a subject into the context of sharing and comparing experience instead of shoehorning the discussion into an I agree/disagree debate does defuse the contention. You got me there. It stands *changed* - but the *point* of Whisky's story was quite unscathed.

 

Others have given *warning* that perhaps some would be offended by their posts, but their OPINION simply HAD to be expressed, as though the earth would swing off it's axis or their head would explode if they were not allowed to stand in opposition to some GREAT perceived crime - the crime of simply being true to what the Pen has been true to for many years. That standard was written for a reason - which it appears that even the eldership has forgotten! Very well, if you want the fences struck down and to have at each other, go for it. You win, Pandora's box is open now - enjoy what you have wrought. And if I have offended you - well, perhaps you should have heeded your own warning. <_>

 

Go on as you see fit. I am going back to what I came here for - to write.

[Whisky in Babylon]

This is becoming a war. All I wanted was to tell everyone about this story which I thought was so great and to hear what they wanted to say...I had to change it to make it accepted and now it has been twisted even more.

 

I did not want it to be changed in the first place I just wanted a good talk, and I got a war. Enough.

 

My topic has been ruined even more than it already was. the whole point of changing in the first place was so that flamming and depate did not start and yet now that I have changed it to be "better and more suited to the fourm" its become what I was trying to advoid.

 

I do love how people have stood up for this I truely do, and this debate is awesome, but what I had planned for has been so bent, all I wanted was to tell a wonderful story to let people know that there is still hope for this world.

 

so I say enough with this, I did not want to know everyones inspiration and I did not want to split the fourm down the middle, all I wanted to know veiws and thoughts on the story...

 

Please take this in private, make another thread something... I just want my topic how I truely intended it to be... and this is not it.

Edited February 21, 2007 by Whisky in Babylon

[NightFae]

Honestly...I'm a little disgusted here.

I have just read the most childish argument I've seen in a long time.

Yes, this shows wonderful word choice and no one has quite stooped to the "well...You're a butt head, because you don't agree with me."

But take away the fancy word choice, and what are we left with?

People are attacking others over something that should have sparked up a decent, intelligent discussion. Possibly a debate, but not this.

[Ozymandias]

Zool, you are welcome here, but this conduct is not. Stepping away does sound like the best thing right now-go ahead. I think I understand why you're angry, but now is obviously not the time to address that. Take a deep breath, have a coffee, a beer, Moutain Dew, whatever your drink of choice is. Come back when you've calmed down.

 

Consider this a friendly warning.

[Quincunx]

(Rydia rounds up the females in the thread and forms a line of fire.)

 

Project That Disapproving Look #986 in three. . .two. . .one. . .!

[Tanuchan]

I am as much disgusted/disapponted by what I see in this thread as NightFae and Whisky. Sincerely, I don't like politics and religion discussions because of their high flammability. I don't like seeing them around at The Pen because if something is prone to start a flame war, it is that - because it has been posted in *public* areas. Were this thread been posted in the Courtyard from the beginning (of course, supposing it had been accessible to Whisky), I would just skip it because of my personal dislike to those discussions. It is just not in my comfort zone to talk about those unless with people I consider close friends. But here in the Cabaret, where anyone can see it and post once registered - I don't consider it completely appropriate. Though, as others said, we are all mostly adults here and I hope it would end up self-moderated by the Pen members as a whole.

 

As for Whisky's intent - I appreciate that, and I think it showed he trusted the Pen membership so share their opinions in a moderate, non-offensive way. But again, his intent would be better answered in an area where many members would be more comfortable about showing their personal thoughts - as I said, internal areas. Of course that is on the premise Whisky felt comfortable enough to apply to us... and I hope it comes to that, yet .

 

 

Mm... sorry if my thoughts came up disjointed... I'm not really comfortable talking about this in public, but I do think some things in this thread have gone too far.

[The Portrait of Zool]

Zool, you are welcome here, but this conduct is not. Stepping away does sound like the best thing right now-go ahead. I think I understand why you're angry, but now is obviously not the time to address that. Take a deep breath, have a coffee, a beer, Moutain Dew, whatever your drink of choice is. Come back when you've calmed down.

 

Consider this a friendly warning.

Let's see if I've got this right. You posted this obviously KNOWING your own conduct may seem innapropriate to some - literally stating as much - and when I openly invited all honest opinion no one objected... was it just somehow assumed I was excluded from my own invitation - or is it simply that Ozy is the only person here who may take liberties and be honest?

 

How does the censorship shoe feel on the other foot Ozy - and all that implies?

 

If it's any consolation old friend, that's exactly the reaction I expected (well, at least I still have posting rights. ) Everyone draws the line in the sand somewhere. For years the Pen has drawn it one place - and EVERYONE wants it drawn somewhere else, where THEY judge it should be drawn, of course.

 

You see, I have been on forums which ARE what many here claim to want, and honestly, I can state it's not everything everyone is thinking it's cracked up to be. You want the enchilada? Fine - you have to take the WHOLE enchilada. I can see how that would turn out - real quick.

 

You may consider this an object lesson. Enjoy.

[The Portrait of Zool]

Whisky, you have my profound apologies. You may not know this, being new, but there is a private forum for the elders to discuss matters, but for some reason it was decided to discuss this in public. I don't know why, but I pride myself on being very flexible - I do hope, again, that you can forgive me.

[Mardrax]

Booting this discussion into the public was a good call. It was just Ozy giving his opinion of how both Zool and Rev were treating Whiskey. It's a shame her idea fell victim to this discusion though, but at least, it's a wake up call.

We may pretend to be a group of people who live in complete harmony with eachother and our ideas, but we're not. It's about time that information got through to the public. Heck. It's time some of us let that information get through to themselves. Here's for sincerely hoping both do their job.

 

It may not be censorship, but at the least it's choosing to leave the ball inside the bush when one person thinks it might have thorns.

[Whisky in Babylon]

I just wanna say there are no hard feelings twords anyone about this whole thing. I think its great that this has happened to be honest though it was not my intent. Everyone does not always get along, smile and hold hands, thats not realistic at all. People disagree, people aruge its how we grow and see things differently. Thats why I think a topic like mine once in a while is great cause it lets us open up and get closer to our fellow members, its not fair that things like this are locked away in a private section it should come to the public. We are all adult enough to have arugments and not come to hate one another or say nasty things.

 

Its just Ironic that what my orginal topic was changed so fighting did not happen, and here we are. Heh

Edited February 21, 2007 by Whisky in Babylon

[The Portrait of Zool]

I must say, I like your attitude Whisky.

 

Truth be told, the site has been rather inactive for quite some time - but recently, as you have noticed, activity has picked up again.

 

And fear not! What the new members, and the old, have been saying does not go unheard. We the management have been in intense collective conference concerning community collaboration! The Pen has always been a membership driven site - so when the membership changes, so must the Pen. Rest assured, Ozy and I are of one mind in ensuring that the Pen serves the members in it, and not the other way around - if you know what I mean.

 

Big news coming soon.