Feedback

[Sweetcherrie]

hmm...I think what I desire mostly at the moment is for the people who took the responsibility to be here, to actually be here.

 

I know that the Pen is the membership, members as well as full members, but it would still be nice to actually have these people around, since they said they would.

 

Example: 3 out of 8 Elders, and 2 out of 6 GLs have replied here so far...

 

It might very well be that things have been discussed already in the Tower or Meeting Room, but it would be nice to see you guys around here as well.

[The Portrait of Zool]

I'm sorry Sweet, if it appears that I am not involved. Believe me, I am following this with much interest - most of the Elders are. My own feeling on this at this point (and others, I'd wager) is simply to lurk and LISTEN to what the membership has to say. We asked you, and we are listening.

 

The Eldership has been discussing this, as you guessed, and has been discussing it for a while. We are very interested in how you feel about the site, what expectations you have, and where you have been disappointed, as well as any improvements or other suggestions moving forward.

 

Of course, we also look forward to discussing your comments and eventually putting the strongest forward for vote!

[Yui-chan]

*cocks a thumb at Zool in her best Fonzie impersonation* Yeah. What he said.

 

*slicks back her hair and gives a thumbs-up*

 

Crazy,

~Yui

[Vigil StarGazer]

A revising of the board and it's uses would be very very appreciated.

For instance:

 

- A seperate WW forum

 

- A Greenroom accesible by anyone, not just initiates. And positioned closer to the Conservatory for obvious reasons... which would be that you don't have to search the whole board to find the OOC Room.

 

- Same for a Critic's Corner, or something similar, maybe named less negative. Same as in, accesible by people not member of the Pen.

 

- A more logical placement of the Walls of the Pen, possibly connected to, or positioned on;

 

- the return of the Start page

 

- Relocation of the Piazza of Portrets, bringing it physically closer to where the actual RPG's are going on.

 

- (people might hate me for this one) Removing of the Guilds, or combining them into One forum.. the only big thing I saw lately was carnivals, and I'm sure the (active) guild leaders don't need three seperate forums with sub-forums to organise that

 

And last but not least, a revising of who can see what. I find it highly uncomfertable for instance that those who are put up for nomination can see their name posted in the Minstrell Hall (pages), but can't do a thing about it.

I find it very confusing that things only the people above Quill-Bearer can vote on, are posted in the Minstrell Hall, stating that only members should vote.. which I know means only those above Quill-Bearer. (in my mind, being accepted in the Recuiters Office is becomming a member.) This is mostly promotions, but has been done on other subjects as well in the past.

 

All in all, I would like to see us create a more open Penkeep, focussed on writing in general, and not on making people write in the right forums or posts.

What in the world? There is a Critic Corner?

Edited August 18, 2006 by Vigil StarGazer

[Appy]

Yup, but as I said, only accessible by initiates or higher...

[reverie]

One thing I've always liked about the pen is it's versatile.

 

*If you're an independent creative type like me, you have plenty of forums to express yourself in. And you can decide you what kind of feedback you want (if any).

 

*If you're feeling more social beyond Pm's and emails, then rp's, irc, general discussions, and various other activities exist for you take part in. You can even create your own. But keep in mind that just like your independent creations, group activities require just as much effort on your part, if not more, to make them work. The generation of interest alone can be exhausting.

 

*If you want to rant or vent about life, the pen has places for that.

 

Just like any institution the pen can never hope to accommodate the tastes of every single person out there, but as is we cast a decently large net for those with the interest enough to be caught up in that sort thing.

 

rev...

Edited August 18, 2006 by reverie

[Mynx]

Noting on something Appy said earlier, I also have issue with the current setting of who can see what. When I first came here there was a clear progression of what you could see as you moved up the ranks, but now it appears that once you move to Initiate you can see almost everything.

 

*shrugs*

 

If everything's going to be rearranged anyway, as it seems to look, I'm not sure I can think of any decent way to say *what* I want...only that I've noticed the changes and I'm not entirely sure I like them all.

Having said that, the Pen will always be a home for me to escape to and I love being able to write and post here, as well as the friends I have made throughout my time here.

 

I think the idea of rearranging the Pen could work, but I'm going to wait and see what the 'final' suggestions are first before I come to any definitive conclusions

[Patrick]

Example: 3 out of 8 Elders, and 2 out of 6 GLs have replied here so far...

I think that those are still higher percentages than any other group of registered users. And frankly, I also think that the opinion of the membership is more interesting than that of its leaders. You can have the best leaders, but without sufficient backing its all useless.

 

 

 

Now, as to what I would like to see from the Pen.

 

As a guild leader:

 

I'd like to see less emnity towards, and more activity in the guilds. It's easy to say that nothing is happening with the guilds, but if those who are guild members do not take part in them, then of course the guilds are going to be inactive and nothing will be happening there. As with what I said above, it's not only the leaders who should be taking part.

 

As a member

 

Sometimes I would like to see more critical feedback. I have the feeling that when replying to someone's works we usually do not mention the bad things we read, in fear of hurting the feelings of the one whose works we are commenting on. The Pen is a writing community and some do strive to get better, but with the "rather friendly, but not really critical" feedback, which I've seen more and more lately that isn't easy. This would also need people to actually accept feedback, which fits into what they describe in their profile feedback level, and not cry foul immediately if someone goes harsh on their works, or to update their feedback level accordingly to what they are ready to accept.

 

 

 

more might follow, but I'd better get to work for now...

[Tamaranis]

* What doesn't the Pen give that you desire?

Eye beams.

 

Regarding feedback, though: I think some of us are just bad at it, I know I am. In the rare occassions I comment on something I try to actually contribute something useful, but sometmes I've just got no advice to give.

 

But I still make a comment because sometimes it's good just to know someone read what you wrote.

[Sweetcherrie]

[rant]

 

I think that those are still higher percentages than any other group of registered users. And frankly, I also think that the opinion of the membership is more interesting than that of its leaders. You can have the best leaders, but without sufficient backing its all useless.

Yup, totally agreed, these people should not have to do it on their own, but they should be there to show the way, especially so with the guilds.

 

GLs were supposed to be activity leaders, people who helped create activity on the boards, and Elders are still the administrative/helpdesk engine behind the Pen. (at least this is how I’ve always seen it).

 

And in this regard I think some parts are going slightly crooked, especially with the poetry guild.

 

As a guild leader:

 

I'd like to see less emnity towards, and more activity in the guilds. It's easy to say that nothing is happening with the guilds, but if those who are guild members do not take part in them, then of course the guilds are going to be inactive and nothing will be happening there. As with what I said above, it's not only the leaders who should be taking part.

I think if the guilds were less to think of their corner as ‘the guild’ and more towards the genre as a guild you will see that the membership of the respective guilds is not doing nothing within the guild genres. However, if you mean that ‘the guilds’ are that forgotten corner in the Pen, yes, I too feel like I don’t want to post there.

 

Especially for roleplay I want to offer as many people as possible the opportunity to join in when I start something, so naturally I will not post this in the guild corners.

 

And if being a member of the guild means I have to post in that corner to be regarded as a proper member, I’d like to cancel my membership please.

 

 

Regarding Feedback: I think it’s good to reply with whatever you feel you can give. I’ve often sat there myself thinking that something is really great, and wanting to tell this person that I really liked it, but with not enough experience to back me up and tell them how they could possibly improve on this.

 

I come to the Pen to share my work, I want to hear what was liked and what wasn’t. And yes, I think you should try to keep someone else’s feelings in mind when replying, if you only have something negative to say, then don’t.

 

I’ve looked around quite a bit on other writing sites, but even where there are professionals commenting on work, they do not go harsh in their feedback. So yes, say what you think, but that doesn’t mean you have to throw it in someone’s face, unless asked for of course…

 

Critical does not mean harsh IMO

 

[/rant]

[Patrick]

GLs were supposed to be activity leaders, people who helped create activity on the boards, and Elders are still the administrative/helpdesk engine behind the Pen. (at least this is how I've always seen it).

 

And in this regard I think some parts are going slightly crooked, especially with the poetry guild.

I fully agree with both points there, that is also how I saw the roles of GLs and Elders. About the AAA, since I don't lead it, apart from some poking, I can't do much, but that is part of the other discussion going on at the moment, anyway.

 

I think if the guilds were less to think of their corner as 'the guild' and more towards the genre as a guild you will see that the membership of the respective guilds is not doing nothing within the guild genres. However, if you mean that 'the guilds' are that forgotten corner in the Pen, yes, I too feel like I don't want to post there.

 

Especially for roleplay I want to offer as many people as possible the opportunity to join in when I start something, so naturally I will not post this in the guild corners.

 

And if being a member of the guild means I have to post in that corner to be regarded as a proper member, I'd like to cancel my membership please.

Again, this would step out from the main subject of the thread, and is being discussed elsewhere, I won't go into detail here, but yes, I was referring to the guilds in their "forgotten corner". It's not really a good situation, neither for the guilds, whose image has suffered quite a bit lately, and neither for the members, who don't really get what the guilds can offer.

 

Regarding Feedback: I think it's good to reply with whatever you feel you can give. I've often sat there myself thinking that something is really great, and wanting to tell this person that I really liked it, but with not enough experience to back me up and tell them how they could possibly improve on this.

 

I come to the Pen to share my work, I want to hear what was liked and what wasn't. And yes, I think you should try to keep someone else's feelings in mind when replying, if you only have something negative to say, then don't.

 

I've looked around quite a bit on other writing sites, but even where there are professionals commenting on work, they do not go harsh in their feedback. So yes, say what you think, but that doesn't mean you have to throw it in someone's face, unless asked for of course…

 

Critical does not mean harsh IMO

I might not have been too clear, but I was actually making two points (or trying to ) One was, that I would like to see more critical feedback, because in my opinion we tend to highlight the positive much more than the negative (which isn't a bad thing), but I feel (and I'll stress that this is my opinion, though others might share it) that some more pointing out what was bad would be welcome.

 

The other point I was trying to make (since I saw some recent examples) was some people's reactions to critical feedback. I saw in several cases, critical feedback (maybe the feedback mentioned a lot more the negative points of the work, but it was still feedback) being not appreciated, when the feedback level of the writer of the poem/story specified in the profile said that anything was game. Having good feedback rejected like this can make others hesitate giving critical feedback afterwards (I know of at least one example).

[Sweetcherrie]

I think the best solution for the feedback problem would be a clear definition of how you're willing to give and receive feedback in your profile.

 

That way those people who do not want "Hey, great poem, I really enjoyed that" won't get that sort of feedback any longer, and the people who do not want to be lectured on the negative without also hearing the positive won't have problems either.

 

Maybe this can already be made clear when people sign up and fill in their profile for the first time?

Edited August 18, 2006 by Sweetcherrie

[Tanuchan]

The other point I was trying to make (since I saw some recent examples) was some people's reactions to critical feedback. I saw in several cases, critical feedback (maybe the feedback mentioned a lot more the negative points of the work, but it was still feedback) being not appreciated, when the feedback level of the writer of the poem/story specified in the profile said that anything was game. Having good feedback rejected like this can make others hesitate giving critical feedback afterwards (I know of at least one example).

 

I want just to point out one thing here - that there are ways for you to give exactly the *same* feedback with the same wording in the feedback part, but keeping it framed in a positive way so that you don't offend people who are more sensitive. Maybe the fact that I'm a teacher has taught me to do it instinctively... but for example, see how Wyvern gives his feedback. He always points out the good and the bad, without being patronizing or condescending.

 

I don't want to elaborate more on this here, since one of those feedbacks you mentioned involved me, I believe . Feel free to PM me

 

 

 

*carefully steps back into lurking*

 

 

 

Edit: typo

Edited August 18, 2006 by Tanuchan

[Sweetcherrie]

I fully agree! and you manage to say it so well

 

*pulls Tanny out of her lurking for a hug, and then lets her escape back to it*

[Katzaniel]

It might be interesting to note at this point that something I'm thinking about contributing to the Assembly Room (which might be adapted for use elsewhere) is a rating level thingy similar to the thing Valdar wrote up, only the other way around - ie, his was recommendations to the reviewer about what sort of feedback the reviewee might want, whereas mine is a way for the reviewees to indicate their desires. The goal would be to standardize certain feedback levels, and if enough people participated, then it might solve many of the problems we have re: not enough vs too much feedback. But, properly orchestrated this might also solve many of the problems we're having with the guilds, so I don't want to reveal it just yet.

 

Also, it's probably about time I expanded upon my earlier brief comments:

 

What do I get from being at the Pen?

 

The Pen provides my motivation to write, because I know that if I take the time to write it, it will probably get read. Furthermore, I've become rather addicted to the occasional good feedback that I get... coming to something I've written and seeing a comment is like a high, and when it's something that can actually help me to improve my writing, that counts for double. I don't think there's anything that the leadership can really do to alter this, nothing that needs to be improved. More activity in general would probably result in more feedback, but of course we still need to keep out trolls and the like - which we do. I'm quite happy in this area - that's why I'm here, after all.

 

What do I think should change?

 

I don't know whether there's really anything that can be done either way, here... but it seems like many times where there's an issue brought up, it takes forever for any consensus of action to be reached. This is, I suspect, the direct result of our wanting everyone to be heard. If we had a dictatorship, everything would move smoothly, but few would be happy... as it is, most are happy but it takes so long. Still, I can't help but wonder whether even more people would be satisfied if the Elders took on just a little more authority and sped along decisions? Hard to say.

[reverie]

Regarding feedback, though: I think some of us are just bad at it, I know I am. In the rare occasions I comment on something I try to actually contribute something useful, but sometimes I've just got no advice to give.

 

But I still make a comment because sometimes it's good just to know someone read what you wrote.

 

Tam: I find that the best thing to do is the just jump in and offer any feedback that strikes once you've read a work. Then go back and edit for clarity and things that may have been worded a little too harsh.

 

But, I get what you mean on not knowing what advice to give. Not too long ago, I was involved in poetry workshops with people so far advanced beyond my current level of development that I could barely understand them. At one point, I was like 'ya know what, I'm just going to shut up and learn from these guys.' Yet, even those that I felt so overwhelmed by had their own deficiencies and over time I was able to see them more clearly and not be as intimidated. It's slow going. Developing a critical eye takes time, and no matter how well you express yourself, you will always run the chance of being way off the mark. Still even incoherent rambling can still have some worth for the author. Because if nothing else emotions will get conveyed.

 

Now as far as people getting angry or upset when offered critical feedback (moderated or otherwise), well I've concluded that it's just inevitable. When, I let my work exist outside of the safe confines of the pen, and let my peers at University critique them, I learned just how upsetting other people's unbiased, and razor sharp thoughts (or what I thought they thought) could be.

 

Here's an example of me coming terms with what one of my classes thought of my poem:

 

Red and Blue

 

I wrote those comments only after I had gained some measure of control over intense feelings of anger over not beingunderstood. Also of my University collection there was a fair amount of angry frustrated soul-searching involved that I choose not to include in my Writer's Workshop posts. Believe me, I was upset and ready to bust heads by end of my first class. But eventually I learned that it's not me they were attacking, just what they perceived as errors in my work. And finally it dawned on me that even if they were off the mark, something made them say what they said, and I should at least consider investigating what that 'something' was. And I've become a better writer for learning to judge my feedback that way.

 

Still not everyone is ready for critical feedback even positive ones. In my nonfiction-memoir-writing-class this summer we had a girl break down in tears on the first day. We were assigned to free-write on a topic for thirty minutes, then share it with the rest of the class; the class would then comment. This was just a dry run, a test, but the girl totally freaked. No one even said anything remotely negative (she was actually pretty good), but that's not what she heard. She ran out of the class and never came back. Towards the end of that class her friend came in and reprimanded us for being "so mean to her" and "accusing her of plagiarism" neither of which had occurred. Later, we emailed her notes of encouragement, but she never replied. See, she just wasn't ready to hear it, any of it.

 

food for thought,

 

rev...

Edited August 19, 2006 by reverie

[Tanuchan]

Also food for thought: does *everyone* who posts here have as an objective become a (better) writer, or develop the same skills? Aren't there people who post for the pleasure of sharing, and *not* to have their work analysed and "improved" as in a writing class? This is what I thought the Critic's Corner and the Writing Workshop were for; to post specifically for technical feedback and development.

[Appy]

*raises a tentative hand* Actually.. that would be me. I don't post here to have my work dissected, nor to have other people improve my writing skill. I know from myself already that practise makes me better, not what other people tell me. Although I'm always willing to listen and learn, it's not my main reason to post here. I post to share, if I post at all. And the reactions I'm looking for lie within the emotional realm, not that of editors. If I need any constructive feedback, I ask people personally to look over it before I even post.

And now that I realise that (thanks Tanuchan!) I really should change the feedback part in my profile... *dissapears behind the Profile Panel*

[reverie]

Tanuchan: No problem with just wanting to share and not wanting to receive any technical analysis of your work. That's why I think the feedback level were instituted. If memory serves, some ppl complained a lot about not getting critical feedback while others complained that that was not what they wanted at all. So like Patrick was saying it's very important to set your feedback level appropriately and honestly. However, it's seems very odd to me that someone would not want to improve. I don't think the thought had ever occurred to me before. Hmm, that's calls for an interesting balance in posts and replies somewhere between wanting attention yet not wanting scrutiny. Thanks for the perspective.

 

rev...

[Tanuchan]

Appy, that's me too

 

*hugs Appy*

 

 

rev: I think people have different objectives when talking about improvement... maybe it's not exactly they don't want to, but *how* they want to or *what* they want to improve. I might not be interested in technical aspects, and dissecting my work is something I can do perfectly without (though I can understand the good intention behind that); however, as Appy, I am interested in the feelings my poems elicit - so knowing that "this doesn't seem to fit well in the general mood" is a good and useful feedback for me, whether it comes with some suggestion or not.

Edited August 19, 2006 by Tanuchan

[Quincunx]

What's caught my eye so far is Appy's suggestions for reordering the forums, breaking up the current order of ascending membership; as you progress through membership levels, more forums become visible beneath the current lineup. That not only removes the confusion surrounding the OOC and feedback areas, it may encourage people to become more involved and aim for a new membership level by making the rewards of membership visible--something that we avoided in the past to avoid feelings of exclusion, but that worry will pass if the routes to gain membership levels are clear enough. We wouldn't even need to wait for the guilds' reorganization to rearrange some of the forums.

 

Play-by-Post: An attempt in spring 2005 in the Conservatory garnered a surprising amount of interest, but almost all from people who mix long periods of Pen activity with inactivity. Rounding enough up to start a game would be more of a problem than actually running one. I've gotten some practice with d20 play-by-post since then--both in a roll-your-own tabletop emulation, and a DM-driven type only possible in play-by-post--and if I can get an assistant with actual books, could take a stab at a low-powered d20 module. (I have open gaming content only, and that means no XP tables, among other problems. . .)

 

Can the Feedback portion of the profile indicate what type of feedback you give? I'd like to advertise myself as a grammar resource, so people who need me can find me. People who want affirmative feedback (see the few posts preceding mine) could find one another more quickly. There's always room for the feedback "This poem resonated with me"--affirmation of the poet's ability to touch the emotions, confirmation that the technical elements of the poem had their desired effect.

[Tanuchan]

(out of main topic )

 

Play-by-Post: (...) if I can get an assistant with actual books, could take a stab at a low-powered d20 module. (I have open gaming content only, and that means no XP tables, among other problems. . .)

Tzim, Not sure what you want/need... but I have all the core books for DnD 3.5 ed. If you want, PM me or poke me at IRC .

 

 

(back to topic)

I also like Appy's suggestion to reorganize the forum branching/visibility... just waiting to see what other suggestions/opinions might appear.

Edited August 19, 2006 by Tanuchan

[Appy]

What's caught my eye so far is Appy's suggestions for reordering the forums, breaking up the current order of ascending membership; as you progress through membership levels, more forums become visible beneath the current lineup. That not only removes the confusion surrounding the OOC and feedback areas, it may encourage people to become more involved and aim for a new membership level by making the rewards of membership visible--something that we avoided in the past to avoid feelings of exclusion, but that worry will pass if the routes to gain membership levels are clear enough. We wouldn't even need to wait for the guilds' reorganization to rearrange some of the forums.

Not really what I had in mind when I posted, but it sounds like a very good idea to combine rank-progress and Board-setup. Nice extrapolating Quincux!

[reverie]

*As far as reordering the forums goes. I'm neutral on the topic so long as the writer's workshop remains intact. Where it exists in the overall forum layout of the pen as a whole doesn't concern me as much though. I like using the Piazza's as a nice organization tool too, but if it were cut, I'd just move my tables elsewhere.

 

*The RP stuff rarely applies to me, so I've neutral on that topic as well.

 

Can the Feedback portion of the profile indicate what type of feedback you give? I'd like to advertise myself as a grammar resource, so people who need me can find me.

~ Quincunx

* I like Q's idea of advertising the kind of Feedback she gives. I've taking to doing something in similar in putting a disclaimer in my feedback profile. Hmm, but I think I'll modify it now for what specifically I can offer someone that's shopping around for a specific kind of feedback. neat.

Edited August 19, 2006 by reverie

[Joat116]

Sweet: I'm sure I've misinterepted you equally as often if not more. You have my apologies as well.

 

*nods to Akallabeth

 

Reasons I come to the Pen:

 

-First and foremost Joat invited me. Unfortunately, I didn't take him up on the offer 'till about a year later, and to my surprise Joat seemed to fallen off the face of the earth.

 

Fallen implies accident. I knew what I was doing when I purposefully lept off the shoulder of the earth (common misconception, it was the shoulder not the face).

 

As for what I would like.... How about more pie? Everyone loves pie. Maybe there should just be a big picture of pie to make everyone feel better. Or a link to a pie delivery website. I'm also told that I should "knock everyone's socks off" so I'd like it if that could happen as well please.