Love

[The Portrait of Zool]

We at the Pen love to write. That's pretty much what we all have in common here, and why the Pen came to be in the first place. Drama, comedy, fantasy, horror, and yes, love too, are all common themes in the countles tales spun by our esteemed members.

 

Recently the poem "I Love You" by one of our most highly esteemed members drew out some controversey, and several of us Pennites believe this is worth following up: Love is universally central to many writing plots and themes, as well as humanity itself, so any insights we can garner as a group on the subject, or even into our own psyches, could only benefit our writing.

 

Please leave your thoughts on the poem and/or on love itself, so we can all share and discuss. And as with any discussion, please always be respectful.

 

(P.S. ...and a big thanks to Salinye for letting me steal her thunder! )

Edited July 7, 2005 by The Portrait of Zool

[DoctorEvil]

Bah!!!!!

 

Love is Evil backwards.....without the "I" of course

[Falcon2001]

I take a unique (at least to myself) view of the big L word; I discovered this after I told someone that I loved them and they completely freaked out.

 

I believe that love can be many different things, but in the end it's simply a strong bond between two things. You love your parents and are bonded to them; you love your dog and you can love your job. The problem is that we - as a culture - have attached a huge taboo to the word 'Love', because of how our media portrays it.

 

In the movies, men fall in love with girls and suddenly their entire world is changed. They stay up at night staring at the wall, they fly across the world looking for the girl. In short, it's frickin' scary.

 

I love a couple people, and I've come to grips with that. They don't love me like I love them, but that's how life works. An unequal relationship such as that just invites heartache and regret, and will eventually just lead to a huge gap.

 

Of course, that's the logical side of my brain talking. My emotional side remembers nights spent lying awake, wondering when I would be able to live without feeling like I had a black hole inside my chest. It remembers looking at someone and knowing that they would never feel the way you did about them, and realizing that the inequality there would forever leave a mark on your heart that would re-open every time you see that person.

[Alaeha]

Love is for the puny mortals. For my part, I intend to live forever or die trying.

 

If memory serves, Hercules died because his wife gave him a cursed cloak. I don't remember for certain, but I think she thought he was cheating on her or something. So she gave him a cloak that burst into unquenchable flames and killed him. Or something like that. One way or another, it was her gift that killed him.

 

But more to the point, I've seen the word Love twisted, misunderstood, misused, and abused to the point that I'm about ready to strike it from my vocabulary altogether.

 

I've lost count, for example, of the number of times that I've seen people excuse inexcusable behavior in someone that they're dating because they "love" them. (Or, in those cases, just don't want to risk feeling lonely.)

 

Or the number of times that I've heard the phrase "I love you" used to say "You're being stupid" or "Do what I want" or pretty much anything other than simply "I love you."

 

And... yeah. I don't really have the stomach to go on right now. It's late and I'm feeling snarky, so I should probably stop.

 

Love, as most people like to describe it, is an interesting and potentially worthwhile thing. But almost invariably, what I've actually seen (in person) being called Love is Lust, Codependancy, Selfishness, or some combination of the above.

 

(By the way, I'm back. For a little while, anyway. And my apologies if anyone's offended.)

[Peredhil]

Hercules: the cloak was steeped in poison that had him *feeling* unending pain and torment. Zeusy-baby transitioned Herc into a constellation to end his suffering.

oh - and I love you.

[Mira]

If memory serves, Hercules died because his wife gave him a cursed cloak. I don't remember for certain, but I think she thought he was cheating on her or something. So she gave him a cloak that burst into unquenchable flames and killed him. Or something like that. One way or another, it was her gift that killed him.

There was somebody who received a cloak of that nature, though it wasn't Herakles.

In Euripides' Medea, Medea gives Glauce, the daughter of Creon, ruler of Corinth, a poisoned cloak and crown that burst into flames killing her as well as her father, the king, when he tries to save her.

 

 

As for my thoughts on love, as far as I'm concerned love is everything.

[Justin Silverblade]

Love.

 

A really neat concept. A really romantized concept. Very few words, and their meanings, can really take off in the literary and emotional world such as it.

 

But as for what love actually is... well, first you have to plough through the various over-used meanings. Peredhil's offering of teh Greeks, and their three words suffice wonderfully. See it here.

 

And with no disrespect to the knowledge of the Ancient Greeks, I'd like to step back from that, and see if I/we can paint a bit broader of a picture. Our word seems to try and incorperate all three in various positive ways (with the possible exception of Eros being now called lust/desire).

 

As well, 'love' seems ever to touch on so many strings, and it is so often said that it is over-used. I agree. But lest we forget, it is not the only word to be violated so. In a world of cliches and universal definitions for things that are (to a degree) relative to the person, this happens everywhere. We must not let it deter us from the actual meaning of the word, as it applies generally, and to us. I am always so sad to see someone jaded towards the emotion/bond because the word has lost what meaning it was meant to have.

 

Want examples? I think "hate" is overused. I think "family" is overused, or in some cases, underused. We can go much more broad: how often is "friendship" used and misconstrued, meaning other things. Similarly with "like"? These latter examples we excuse their misuses more often, as they still fulfill our purposes. They are, if you will, lighter.

 

But when you get something intended to describe deep, full, meaningful emotions, and you see it misused, it is not so easy to excuse.

 

And now, we come to the best definition of Love that I can offer. Never forget that the word itself: "love" is artificial. It's made up. It is not as easy to draw a line from it to it's meaning, like for example "rock." I pick up a rock and I see a rock. Wow!

 

But "love" is a word that was made up to convey an entire expression of great things. Great things connected in a great bond. Not just "like" but something much bigger. "Heavy duty like." The "like that needs little back." (In the best of cases) "the like that needs nothing back." My friend had it pinned rather well before:

 

"Love is the fidelity of emotions [towards another anything]."

 

I think it should be added, that it is the fidelity of positive emotions. Negative ones would lead us to hate, and hate would lead us to the dark side... If fidelity scares you, replace with loyalty.

 

Please note, that I am not trying to be vague. I am trying to give an exact definition. I think that love, being a symbol and an attempt to describe the many interweaving positive emotions (and princples, for that matter) we have for someone, or something. To provide a list of which emotions exactly, it when and where we break things down to the individual. To where everyone tells their lover romantic tales of how a thousand seas could not compare. To where the Greeks had 3 words, instead of one. I could turn around and tell you all of the emotions I have for my girlfriend (who I am deeply in love with) that fit when I tell her I love her, and you could pick and choose from the list saying "that's good, that's good, that one doesn't have anything to do with it though." etc etc.

 

So when I tell you all that I love her, if you believe me, what you should be picking up is that I have a connection with her (that isn't nessesarily reciprocal, thank you for the point, Faclon! I agree completely with most if not all of your post) which is much stronger than "like." It most likely has the additions of loyalty, friendship, attraction, appreciation.

 

Specifics now would reach into a world of wonder, awe, and expression but certianly not reason.

 

And a final word to clarify. Kane as you can hopefully see, the reason I disagreed with you was simply because I do not believe acts are nessesary. Definately reccommened, but not in the slightest nessesary. I can see how, without acts, the love may be wasted and so I do encourage acts. And, you are certainly right, not acting on it can cause heartache. But it is not nessesary as a part of love to act. The lovers that did nothing loved no less because of it.

 

Whew! And now I've gone and said too much!

 

- Justin

[Quincunx]

Let's not forget that Jason and Hercules were both on their way to marry a different woman. Deianira avoided hurting the innocent bystander and put "love potion" (blood blighted by a centaur's dying curse. . .and lie) on the cloak of Hercules. Medea wanted to make Jason suffer, and made sure he was left alive to suffer longer, so she roasted his new bride and killed their sons in front of him ("I changed my mind. You're not worth breeding.").

[Black9]

What is love? You might as well ask what is truth? It's a question formulated by philosophers from long ago and a question that hasn't been answered to this day. Perhaps the answer is that is there no answer. Perhaps some questions have none, or too many to count.

 

If I were to speculate on the subject...I would have to say that love is an attachment to a person place or thing. I would have to say that it's a willingness to put your very being on the line to keep it safe and it's the longing in your heart to know the truth. I'm not going to get into the question, "what is truth?", that's a subject for another day. But to me the truth is that if we value some one, thing or place more then our own well being...then this is love in its most pure form.

Edited July 10, 2005 by Black9

[Quincunx]

(Written in the style of The Guardian's "Digested Reads")

 

I wrote a novel about love. Then my dead teacher said, "The best novelists observed human nature, so delete the narcissism, you self-absorbed twit." Only if I get to keep the prologue and the afterword.

 

*

 

A group of twentyboppers dressed as Japanese cartoon heroines—short skirts, glitter, two balloons strapped in front—compared the freedoms of lesbianism. “It’s like loving myself except I get to complain about the flaws in everyone else instead of fixing my own!” gushed Sailor Superficial.

 

“That sounds marvelous!” enthused a greasy man with a video game heroine on his T-shirt.

 

“Oh, you can’t do it. You’re male.”

 

“Not a problem,” he said, and took estrogen pills.

 

*

 

Man lived in a little fort built out of pizza boxes and wrote that he was unique. When he came out for his monthly jaunt to the mall’s computer store, woman ambushed him in front of Frederick’s of Hollywood. “SO lonely!” she cried. “And unique,” she added in afterthought. Man still didn’t get it, so she flashed him. She’d written “Do me, you idiot” across her breasts in black Sharpie marker, finest point. “Ruined my best inker,” she screamed later, “for a social parasite who lives in a sty!”

 

*

 

Two hundred words. Can I pleeeeeease write about myself now? There’s only so much human nature to be found in blogs and the people who love them. No? Bugger off, then, you zombie. Hmm, people I couldn’t find in blogs, let me think. . .

 

*

 

Two post-menopausals clucking over sugar-filled pastries: “You can have my husband, you’ll return him before dinnertime.” “Back when the children were babies and I loved them more than him, he saw me nursing them and ran off. I hauled him back and damned if I know why.” “Less effort than breaking in a new one.” “Children have too much energy these days. Keep trying to break in new ones.” “Babies take that right out of you, don’t they?” “They do.”

 

*

 

My turn now. I don’t love babies. I hate babies. Babies don’t have hate but they could in the future and they have caused such pain in the past. I’d rather love a man, who already has a past and future, for what he presently is, but that kind of love makes babies and I hate babies. Mother love? What’s that? Reason and Science say it’s based on hormones. So is love. I hate it.

 

Digest of the digest:

Eyes wide shut

 

[EDIT: First draft contained obscenity. So do many of the Guardian digests.]

Edited July 10, 2005 by Quincunx

[Justin Silverblade]

It's a question formulated by philosophers from long ago and a question that hasn't been answered to this day. Perhaps the answer is that is there no answer. Perhaps some questions have none, or too many to count.

Ah. Well, umm... mind if I...?

 

Philosophy, reasoning in general, is a slow process. But I don't think a nessesarily pointless or incapable quest. I think the answer is there, for all of us, on a great many of the "difficult questions." Differing opinions? Yes. Lots of different, possible, answers? Yes. But never let this disuade you. There is a right answer. Or - much more accurately - there is a best answer. It makes rational sense for there to be.

 

Sometimes the most quiet person screams the best answer, just to have no one hear them, and go on for a hundred years with second-rate answers that "just don't seem to hack it."

 

Example? Take a look at how similar all of the answers to the question "What is love" have been here.

 

I mean absolutely no disrespect Black9. I just worry that such thoughts lead people to give up on the attempt.

 

- Justin

 

PS - I very much "loved" your answer too, btw. Very close to my own thoughts, and very beautiful sentiment.

[Black9]

I take no disrespect...I love to debate. This side of me just never came out before. What I find that happens is that to answer a question such as this...one must first answer other difficult questions...questions that lead to many other questions of their own. Is it possable to eventually find the answer, yes, but it would take some time.

Edited July 10, 2005 by Black9

[Peredhil]

Stands up and applauds Quincunx's post

 

I love information through parables.

[Katzaniel]

Applauds both Justin Silverblade (who seems to have summed up many differring opinions into one opinion) and Quincunx (whose post is very thought-provoking, among other things).

 

"Love" reminds me of any of a number of physical and mental irregularities, which always come with a list of symptoms. If you have more than 4 of the listed 8, go to a doctor because you might be infected! Hard to tell though. The point being that both Love and Disease manifest themselves in a variety of ways, depending on the person, depending on the degree to which you have it, depending on whether you're trying to fight it ... mostly just depending on luck and random factors.

[Ayshela]

"I love you"

three of the most often misused words in the english language, agreed. They also happen to be the only phrase i know which is simultaneously pitifully inadequate AND completely equal to the task of conveying inarticulate emotion.

 

What IS love? Ask a hundred people and you'll get a hundred variations on a theme, if not more. At it's most simplistic and generalized, you'll find 'caring' or emotional attachment to a person, a place, a thing, a concept or belief.

 

Where it so often gets twisted, abused, misused, is in the deeper levels of caring for someone more than yourself, wanting what's best for *them* even if it's not what's best for you. The possibility of being mistreated by someone who does not return that is always present. It happens often when one-way love originates in someone who doesn't value him/herself at all.

 

Channeling myself down to straight line question-answer in specific terms (difficult, of late): (gospel according to Ayshela, as always)

Love is an emotional bond of caring, concern, support, wanting the best for the object of affection. Love need not be returned to exist, nor need it be overtly acted on - i would note that sometimes refusing to act IS the action in another's best interest. Love involves aspects of many things, which is part of what makes it difficult to define - love without friendship or loyalty, for instance, seem less than fully real.

 

And before I find myself wandering from the point again, I'll hush. =)

[Black9]

There really is no clear cut answer is that I agree with all of it so far:)

[The Portrait of Zool]

I found The Way to Love by Anthony deMello a most insightful and rewarding read. His other books, most notably Awareness, I also found to be excellent.