On the nature of God

[Boaz]

Ok, this isn't a discussion on if god exists or not, so those of you that don't believe, don't take it as on.. and those of you that do believe... don't take it that way either..

The point of this is just to keep my brain going this afternoon, and to explain why I personally think that "bad things happen". to truly enjoy this post..and the discussion that I hope springs from it... put aside the concept of if God exists or not...and instead think only of why things are like they are if there is a good God watching us.

 

Before I begin, please excuse my lacking skills of communication. I really shouldn't attempt a post such as this, but I feel the need... *shrug* my brain is getting rusty.

 

God is benevolent, so why is there evil in the world? I believe the answer is both simple and one of the most complex concepts at the same time.. the simple answer is... so that we could have spiritual depth, the complex answer is...so that we could have spiritual depth. Don't worry I am not going to "cop out" and simply say it is "free will" though that does tie into the subject matter/reason.

 

If you take a small baby, put it in a padded room, and give it everything it needs and wants..what will you have in 20 years? You will have someone that is still a baby in many if not most ways. The person will not learn the things that we learn in everyday life. It will not have the ability to cope with problems or disappointments. There would not be the spiritual/mental depth that even a 7 year old has after living in the "real world"

 

This ties into why bad things happen to people, and why just because you pray more than your neighbor doesn't mean you will have a 4k square foot house.

 

I believe that we were created to be companions, for company. If god gave us everything we wanted and there was no crime, hunger, and other problems in the world we would all be like "Chip" the preppy rich kid who had his own sailboat at 8, and doesn't understand anything that is outside of his trust fund(not saying all rich kids are like that).. how would you like to have only friends like that?

 

Also, if you are rich and have friends..how do you know which ones truly love you? and which only love you because you lavish them with gifts? A perfect world would make it easy to say we love and believe in God.

 

Free will is a part of the equation though, as you getting robbed by a guy in a dark ally is a consequence of his free will. If God removed crime, etc, he would have to remove free will from some...if that is the case why not from all and make us automatons that have no true spiritual depth?

 

In short, God created us so we could grow and become more than we are, both individually and as a people. He gave us the chance to mature and have depth. We shouldn't shake our fists at God and blame him for things when they go wrong, instead we should understand that by being subtle, and letting the cards lay as they were played, he is giving us the chance to grow up, and not be spiritual 2 year olds during our whole existence.

 

Well, that is enough rambling I guess..I am sorry for any that dislike my use of "He" for God, but that is just how I have learned to visualize him(pronoun wise at least).

 

I welcome any and all discussion..or even comments telling me I am boring, wrong, off my rocker...etc.

 

Boaz

 

p.s. To be honest..now that I have finished it.I am tempted not to post it... something jus isn't good enough...but oh well...once it is written it must be posted.

[Annael]

Okey doke, well it looks like I will be the first person to respond to this thread.

 

Now, don't take offence to no one replying as it is the long weekend, and well, some people are reluctant to take on a topic such as this. I, well, I'm waiting to run out to play poker (yes, it's a vice I wish that I didn't have,) and I figured that it is time for Ann to make a return. And what better way to start then to get into this conversation.

 

How do we want to look at this? From the religious aspect which I am, or philosophical which I've studied, or a non-believer, which a lot of people are starting to become if they already aren't one already.

 

Religious:

 

There is evil in the world because, well, God and the Devil come hand in hand. Lucifer is God's most favoured angel after all. One cannot experience peace, beauty and true goodness without having first experienced the opposit. There is chaos, and ugliness and everyday life all around us. A lot of the time yes, the evil that is around us is caused by free will. And that is a choice that He presented us with. But in the end, we cannot blame Him for it is us that ultimately makes the decision in the end.

 

Philosophy: Nietsche said that God is dead. Why? Because unlike the good ol' days when man turned to God for everything, man has now turned to science. We pray to the doctors to save us, not for God's hand to intervene. We have turned from the One that meant everything to us at one point. (Somewhere amongst the Hold 'Em, I lost my train of thought. This one is now done. Sorry.)

 

Non-Believers: Pardon the language, but sh*t happens. *shrugs* They can't really blame it on anyone, now can they.

 

I like your point on Bad things happening so that we can experience and grow spiritually. But I can't help but think that there is something more to it then just that.

 

I am sorry that if at points my thoughts seemed jumbled. I really should know better then to try and take on a topic like this while playing online poker.

[Ozymandias]

I actually agree with both of you on almost every point. The only exception?

I too believe that bad things are allowed to happen so we can grow.

 

 

I really must come back to this thread when I've more time. Thank you both for it. :>)

[~O~]

I too believe that bad things are allowed to happen so we can grow.

Amen, brother! Also... I'd like to toss out the idea that an omniscent God would have a different view of what was "bad" for people than those same people.

[epinephrine]

Ok two cents time I suppose.

 

If we accept that we are created to be companions (whic I certainly do) then we need to be able to show "love", to various different degrees. In order to show love we need to allow the possibility of not showing love. To me this means if God wants us to love him he has to allow that we can choose not to. If we follow the choice to not love then eventually bad things happen.

 

Make sense? BAsically I am saying that bad things happen because people choose for them to happen. I would suggest that people make such decisions from an inherently selfish nature. (ohh now I'm gonna be lambasted for that)

 

Anyway that's my humble opinion on it. I look foward to seeing some others.

 

epinephrine

[Regel]

Shit happens! Why? It just does. We try to live our lives like we are in control of all aspects and then a storm blows in an sets the world on it's ear and we go "Why did God do that?"

We live our lives on the clock. Chasing, running, stressing and then when we break down we say "Why did God do that?"

 

Your question is about "What is the nature of God?" I wonder if you understand that we chose free will and since we didn't want to be sheep we often wonder if our sheppard is watching or even cares.

 

There are many views on this subject Boaz but there is evil in the world and there is good. In most cases they both reside in the hearts of men and women. It is not exclusively internal it's also external.

 

I reminded of an old Bob Dylan song from his "Slow Train Coming" album. It was called "Gotta Serve Somebody".

 

But you're gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed

You're gonna have to serve somebody,

Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord

But you're gonna have to serve somebody.

 

I see the influences of both of these two in the world today and Bob was right.

Edited May 29, 2005 by Regel

[~O~]

Interestingly enough, the Bible says that there are actually three forces at work in the world. God and the Devil are the ones that everyone can name. But the third is called "the flesh", which would be translated "human nature". Personally, I don't believe that human nature is inherently "good" or "evil", but rather "selfish". Selfishness is not inherently evil, although it can bring it about. And... btw... outside influences can swing a selfish act either towards good or towards evil. For instance, Genesis, where God brings good out of the act of Joseph's brothers when they sold him into slavery.

[DoctorEvil]

God is benevolent, so why is there evil in the world?

OK.... The Doctor has been gathering the Doctor's thoughts on this subject and drinking beer (pardon the spelling as a result)

 

"I don’t want to start any blasphemous rumours

But I think that god’s got a sick sense of humor

And when I die I expect to find him laughing"

Yeah...this whole "God is benevolent" thing is the only thing the Doctor has an issue with. By all Old Testament accounts God is a vengeance-filled bastard. Let's review....

 

Exodus 12:29 - And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.

 

Genesis 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

 

Of course we could look up other incidents, but let us suffice to say that in his day (the Old Testament days that is) God kicked ass and took names.....

 

Which brings to the long standing issue the Doctor has had with God....Why do people portray God has a benevolent, loving diety when most accounts paint him in the opposite light? Seriously, how can we subscribe human values like love and benevolence on a ominiscient being with the power to create life? His motivations would be as different to us as our motivations are to ants. Can we even being to imagine what his (or hers) motives are?

 

The only reason the Doctor can think of is public relations. Let's face it is most modern religions just can't sell the idea of "God is a Vengeful Butt-kicker idea" to the masses (well other than the Doctor that is). Religions and faith can not be built on the idea the God is above you and he really doesn't care.

 

And to a large extend that ends up becoming the nature of faith. You have to believe in something that gives you hope and strength...and most likely that is not belief in an uncaring God.

 

The Doctor does not wish to offend anyone with this rant. Believe it or not, the Doctor has a great respect for people that have such faith, mostly because it's something the Doctor lost long ago. Please don't take this as an attack on your faith. The Doctor knows the "Old Testament" vs. "New Testament" protrayal of the Lord is topic of debate among theologians and the Doctor welcomes the response.

Edited June 11, 2005 by DoctorEvil