Gryphon Posted October 31, 2004 Report Posted October 31, 2004 The thing I see wrong with Kerry is that he seems to like citing everything that's gone wrong in Iraq and then saying "If I had been president at the time, then that wouldn't have happened." I don't know that much about it... in fact to be honest I pretty much treat this whole thing as a somewhat amusing soap opera that occationally happens to be screening on my tv... However Is it not possible that Kerry's statement is true simply because if he were president the US wouldn't have ended up in Iraq at all? Thus making his statement totally accurate and possibly even factual? Of course there still exists the possibility that the US would instead be having similar problems, but in another country... maybe afganistan... but his statement would still be true. There'd not be a problem in Iraq if Kerry had been president.
Annael Posted November 2, 2004 Report Posted November 2, 2004 Well, considering that I got into a huge shouting match with my father over this, all I have to say is this: Choose wisely, lives depend on it. And in the end, that's all that really matters, doesn't it?
Mira Posted November 3, 2004 Report Posted November 3, 2004 It's 1:06 EST and I'm gouging my eyes out.
Degenero Angelus Posted November 3, 2004 Report Posted November 3, 2004 A lot like Mira. It's 1:50 EST All that's left is praying for Ohio
The Big Pointy One Posted November 3, 2004 Report Posted November 3, 2004 So far, it's going much like I imagined... close, but Bush is clinging ahead. Regardless, if I haven't said it already, good luck to all our American Pennites, not to mention the rest of the world, in regards to whoever wins... let's just hope the world doesn't lose... -.-;
Mira Posted November 3, 2004 Report Posted November 3, 2004 I'm callin' it! At approximately 11:15 EST Kerry called Bush and conceded the election Now what do we do with Republican control of the entire government?
Katzaniel Posted November 3, 2004 Author Report Posted November 3, 2004 And the world breaths a collective sigh of resignation. ... It was like watching a 'Rider game (or season), that was. Losing, but they're doing well, and there's always that hope of a comeback. Until the last second ticks off the clock there's always that hope. (By the way, I don't like Bush much )
reverie Posted November 3, 2004 Report Posted November 3, 2004 (edited) '...alas babylon' America: Blind Faith vs Reasoned Conviction Faith won... We lose... A divided America Scares me. I used to be a conservative~and Southern Baptist to boot. The me of 10 years ago could have easily fit in with the Neo-Cons of today... Luckily, something amazing happened. I grew up. I learned that other peoples views and outlooks matter. What I believe is right, may not be right for others. And though, I did and still do believe that overall America is the best current social model out there; I learned that it is possible for me to be wrong. I just wish the rest of the country would learn that. There's a fine, fine line between Patriotism and Nationalism... And I fear we have crossed it. America Grow Up. revery the dreamlost "all you want to do is something good; so get ready to be ridiculed and misunderstood..." ~aimee mann the dream continues... Edited November 3, 2004 by reverie
Lady Celes Crusader Posted November 4, 2004 Report Posted November 4, 2004 If the fact that Bush is stucked with a divided America will let him take a more moderate approach, since he desires to unite the whole country back together, there's still hope. However, the division is way too deep between the more liberals and these religious fanatics that constitued Bush's electoral base. It will take a lot of time and a huge deal of compromise in order to have an unified USA. Since he doesn't have a strong mandate, he should be more cautious than ever.
Alaeha Posted November 4, 2004 Report Posted November 4, 2004 (edited) Fascinating, Rev. Within one breath, you completely negate any semblance of credibility you may have attained in that post. I grew up. I learned that other peoples views and outlooks matter. Toss in an implication that anyone disagreeing with you is blind and only those who agree with you are reasonable -- but the poor morons would be fine if they'd stop being childish -- and we've got quite an interesting message. *Shrugs* That's why I typically stay out of these threads. Alaeha wanders off, muttering, "Discuss the ideas, not the people who have them. Is that really so hard? Edited November 4, 2004 by Alaeha
Katzaniel Posted November 4, 2004 Author Report Posted November 4, 2004 Alaeha, I'd really like to hear your opinions on this. If you don't want to post here, can you PM me? The thread's purpose was debate, after all, and I haven't heard too much from the supporters of Bush. Are you willing to elaborate?
Gryphon Posted November 4, 2004 Report Posted November 4, 2004 I saw a funny headline today: Generations of Bushes Watch and Wait. I got this picture in my mind of a bunch of plants gathering in a clearing... Well it was funny to me.
Boaz Posted November 4, 2004 Report Posted November 4, 2004 There is a reason that Bush supporters do not talk about it in lots of various places... it is because of the implication in what other say and write that to support bush you must either be stupid, or I don't know... ignorant..or even worse.. "evil",etc.. Since many people don't like going into a situation where they know they will be outnumbered, and there is a good chance it might get ugly they stay away. seems like a very good policy to me. sorry for this not being that great grammatically, but is 12:30 and I have to get up for work in like 5 hours, so I didn't worry to much about the formatting.
reverie Posted November 4, 2004 Report Posted November 4, 2004 (edited) Toss in an implication that anyone disagreeing with you is blind and only those who agree with you are reasonable -- but the poor morons would be fine if they'd stop being childish -- and we've got quite an interesting message.hmm, acutally, as always I was drawing from my own experience. In the past I always decribe my faith as "blind faith." I would wear it like armor to fight atheist, secular hedonist types, and other religious faithful... I would not let any other view point encroach apon my own. My religion was superior to all others...and if you didn't agree with me, I would destroy you. I would try to listen calmly, but really I was just listening for ammo to file away in an your agrument as I readied my own. I would attempt to upend you arguments by attacking your foundations because if another person viewpoint could make me question my faith, then my foundation would start to crumble. The world would then not be such a simple place... Again: I grew up. I did question my faith. Reading help. Epecially tolstoy and hemmingway for some reason... When before the war started: I hear supporters for the WAR refusing to hear reasons ANY REASONS against going to WAR. Where they utter: "I don't care what you say, I am just here to support the Troops." I consider that blind faith. When during the war: I hear people explain away the lies about WMD's, "Well that what presidents are supposed to do. Lie, Clinton did it." I consider that blind faith. When almost half of America determines this election focus should be about a Referendum on Morality, instead of a Referendum of Preemptive War. Something Amercan has never done before. I consider that blind faith. And yes America needs to learn to be less Selfish and Grow Up. I am a Patriot. I love my country. And it kills me to see the direction it is going... Nationalism leads to persecution. Patriot: I believe in my country and will defend it. Nationalist: We are greatest in the world; We are right; Our view is superior to all others; We are willing to go to war to prove it; and nothing you can say will change our minds. Yes, I am biased. Why? Because I consider myself reformed. If you do not challenge that which is around you... you will never grow. You do not have to rebel. But you should try to change. Change for the better... rev... Edited November 4, 2004 by reverie
YanYanGanaffi Posted November 4, 2004 Report Posted November 4, 2004 I wonder if it's too late to move to Canada?
HappyBuddha Posted November 4, 2004 Report Posted November 4, 2004 There's actually a brilliant essay out there by a prominent but reasoned liberal that I read recently, which elaborates and expounds upon Reverie's idea of Patriotism being distinct from nationalism...I'll see if I can't scan that sucker this afternoon, its a beautifully well done piece, and the only argument for permanently instating a draft in the United States which I've been somewhat convinced by.
Gryphon Posted November 4, 2004 Report Posted November 4, 2004 There is a reason that Bush supporters do not talk about it in lots of various places... it is because of the implication in what other say and write that to support bush you must either be stupid, or I don't know... ignorant..or even worse.. "evil",etc.. Since many people don't like going into a situation where they know they will be outnumbered, and there is a good chance it might get ugly they stay away. seems like a very good policy to me. It seems to me that if Bush won the election then presumably he's got more supporters than Kerry did? Surely the implications there are that they should be the ones doing the outnumbering? I'm curious though. With so many people claiming to want a change of president, a change of direction, a breath of fresh air in the stuffy room of politics... How is it that Bush managed to get re-elected? Are the supporters of Kerry et al just the only ones making noise? I was under the impression that the whole situation was very vocal, so I'm wondering why it now looks like there was either a silent majority that supported Bush - or a hefty portion of those who were complaining didn't get up the guts to do something about it and vote for Kerry. Can anyone give me a clue here?
The Big Pointy One Posted November 4, 2004 Report Posted November 4, 2004 I wonder if it's too late to move to Canada? It's never too late ^.^
Ayshela Posted November 4, 2004 Report Posted November 4, 2004 given the violence of the "vocal majority" i'd guess that those who support Bush simply aren't interested in having to defend themselves, their thoughts, their feelings, their preferences, and their right to live their lives to people who adamantly insist that from the president down all should die horrible ugly drawn out painful deaths. (and before the protest goes up, yes, i've left many a thread on many a public forum in disgust over the suggested "resolution of the Bush situation")
Katzaniel Posted November 4, 2004 Author Report Posted November 4, 2004 Gryphon - I can't speak for Boaz, but from what I've seen, there is a majority of Kerry supporters and Bush did get elected... because Canadians and very likely other non-Americans prefer Kerry. As for why Americans themselves tend to prefer Bush, that's what I've been trying to figure out. I'm getting there. Kerry doesn't have much of a platform, I guess. I've been told he's also planning to put Vietnam Veterans on trial as war criminals...? Yowza. Kerry is giving Bush a lot of trouble over his planned draft, but has no better plan. I guess the thing that confuses me so much is why is the world turning bipolar? The Canadian election and these past two American ones. Are there more? If so, what is it all about?
Boaz Posted November 5, 2004 Report Posted November 5, 2004 I don't feel like getting into this deeply, if you want to know why, look at this thread so far. I have no urge to argue with any of you, and I haven't, but look at the posts so far. People make comments about bush's supporters, they make comments about bush. Look at the people that seem to be the bush supportors. We suggest we don't want to talk about it, that it will not do anything constructive, yet we are the ones that are suppose to be pushing our believes and thoughts down the "liberals" throats.. doesn't seem that way to me at the moment. Also, look at a couple of the comments, I know they are made in jest, but it shows a trend, I am talking about "Is it too late to move to canada." Ok this might bother some people, but let me put the cards on the table.. WHAT DID YOU EXPECT? For years now I have seen some people do stuff like go on TV and claim that when they look into a chickens eyes, they see the same soul as a baby human. Also there is the woman I saw once that I saw on one show, decrying that killing of baby calves for veal, and talking about how pregnate cows are sometimes slaughtered........ less than 2 weeks later, I saw her talking for another group she represented, talking about how women have the right for abortion. I am not claiming one is wrong or one is right, but you can't have it both ways, either unborn baby cows don't count, or unborn humans do..make a decision. There really was a really big "liberal" tint to the programming/media/proclaimed thought process of the nation, did you not expect there to be blowback? Any time there is a swing too far one way or the other, you can expect for there to be counterswing, action/reaction. Something else that bothers me, is that people claim that conservatives are close minded, and that we should accept everybody for who they are and respect their beliefs, but the second conservative says they believe "X thing, for Y reason" they are called a bigot and that they should change their minds. You can't have it both ways, you can't expect for others to respect you and what you say, if you are not willing to let them have theres..even if it is "well let them be ignorant" GOD I hate this, I have written all of this about a subject I really don't want too. And I am sure I am going to get reamed about at least one or two things, and why? Because someone here will think my believes are stupid/ignorant. You know something? I hadn't claimed any such thing about any of the things others have said here... yet I am the one that would be labeled unaccepting or some such for supporting bush. Later, Boaz P.S. when I said majority, look at this post, most have shown a dislike for Bush. why? because different people hang out in different areas, I am sure if you went to a Church in the south, liberal would be minority, if you went to a block party in New York, concervative would be minority.
Degenero Angelus Posted November 5, 2004 Report Posted November 5, 2004 Not being argumentative, just observant. Isn't it funny how all conservatives say there's a liberal tint to the media, and all liberals say there's a conservative tint?
reverie Posted November 5, 2004 Report Posted November 5, 2004 ...well to nutshell my feelings... it really all comes down to hyprocracy... I think the world tends not to like us because of this...and the current direction of things doesn't seem to say any of it will change... Am not blaming all this on the sitting prez (it's been scores in the making...) but I don't think he can fix it; either the perception of it or the reality of it... and if anything i fear it will only get worse... If by nothing else then by refusing to talk about it as a legitimate reason for some of the ill feelings toward us. Katz not sure where you got the vet thing? hmm, I actually heard the recording kerry gave to congress about vietnam... it was good speech for someone so young. he took the experiences of other vets who had testified in another forum and presented them concisely. Taking issue with the leadership not the soldiers... well that's how I interpreted it. To boars: Why can't you have it both ways? I agrees it may seem silly, but why can't she choose. People are funny about what they care about. Also: a lot of liberal and moderates feel the same way about supporting kerry in the open... I've been called worthless, a whimp, trader, all of sorts of gay conatations(am straight,) have also seen kerry supporter be told to jump off the bridge they were standing on. And believe me, the 'evil' word gets thrown around a lot towards liberal beliefs... So it cut both ways... just depends on which moral majority you happen to be swimming in if you happen to be the minority... rev...
Lady Celes Crusader Posted November 5, 2004 Report Posted November 5, 2004 Boaz: I perfectly know what you mean when you've said that you feel that conservatism have a "horrid" label stamped on their forehead.
The Big Pointy One Posted November 5, 2004 Report Posted November 5, 2004 Hrm... it's getting a little sticky in here. And I'm a big sticky. Heh, jokes. Anyways, in the end, I don't think it really makes much difference. Bush and Kerry, Liberal and Conservative, they all have their own different plans and ideals, yes. But in the end, they all are trying to do their job, and it's easy to judge when you're not walking in their shoes. When you're in the world spotlight, everyone notices your mistakes, and unfortunately, mistakes made in said spotlight tend to be bigger. We all make mistakes. The thing is, like it or not, you have take the good with the bad. Where am I going with this? I'm not sure, really. I know it's good to vocalize our opinions on such matters, and I'm sure everyone around here can handle said opinions in a mature manner, no matter how different our opinions may all be. Let's not forget that after all's said and done, we're all friends here, and that this is simply a conversation/debate. It won't change anything outside this thread.
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