An Atheist on Judgement Day

[Guest ntraveler2]

[EDIT: Deleted. User has left.]

Edited August 31, 2004 by ntraveler2

[Nyyark]

Heehee I decided to respond. *Looks sheepish*

 

I was a rather loooong post, and I hope I didn't break any of the community rules or anything. Also I doubt I should have started with commentary on the writting as a work of art instead of on its content. Do they not do that there?

[Peredhil]

Hmmm. I haven't time to follow the link but...

 

[rant]

The implication you give with your subtitle is that if you read that and don't agree that it was brilliant, you are closeminded.

Isn't that closeminded, to judge someone on whether they agree or not?

 

Given the very title of the post, the implication from the word 'Atheist' is that the closeminded person will be someone who is not "against God" (the definition of atheist.

 

I've noticed that those who sling around the term closeminded tend to mean, "if you have any absolute standard at all, you have closed yourself to all other standards and are closeminded. You must accept that anyone could be right."

On the surface, this is prolly closeminded of me, but I have an absolute standard that within one-quarter mile of the Earth's surface, gravity will cause a human body to fall.

Why is this closeminded? Because people such as Einstein have argued that gravity doesn't exist - it's an external manifestation of some other force which we don't yet understand.

The effect is the same, whether I'm right or Einstein is right.

 

I'm very closeminded when it comes to people's rights. I definitely limit their right of Free Speech (which is often used to mean "right of freedom to say whatever they want without consequence") around my mother. If someone wants to talk to her in certain ways, with certain words, I *will* correct them.

 

I'm closeminded and impose my absolute standards on other things. By the openminded standard, anyone's right to act as they want is just as right as any other, it's a personal choice. I limit the right of others to rape my friends, male or female. That's a personal absolute standard.

 

I'd be very wary of calling anyone else closeminded...

 

And I definitely resent the implication that if I disagree with an author, they may closemindedly ignore MY opinion, and MY belief because I've disagreed.

[/rant]

[Zadown]

*shrug

 

I'm an atheist myself, and I didn't find that especially brilliant. Seemed like an elaborate attempt to provoke (fanatic) christians. Not badly written, but as I do not feel strongly about the subject in any way and as it had little merit as a story, I found it boring if anything.

 

As you can provoke fanatics by something as simple as using the name of 50 year old book as the name of the film inspired by said book *cough Two Towers cough*, I'm not impressed. Dunno about those forums, depending what they usually discuss that could be considered simple trolling.

[Aardvark]

I don't believe in atheism

[Merelas]

Hmm.

 

Somewhat troubling.

 

But I suppose none of us will know what Judgement Day will really be like until we get there, will we?

 

Until then, I'm going to continue living my life as I have, and believing.

[Katzaniel]

I think they probably didn't do it (comment on the writing) because it wasn't written by the person who posted it. I think I remember him saying that.

 

Anyway, I would have commented if I didn't have to register first. I think I will comment here though, since ntrav has brought up religion anyway... (and as you all know, religion can be a touchy topic... I don't *mean* to offend anyone, sorry if I do...)

 

First, I think the main point of the story was to say that it doesn't matter if you're an atheist or a theist (doesn't address whether it matters if you're a good person or not, since both were) but that what matters is whether you can justify your choices. My belief is basically that theist or otherwise, if you try to help others then you are a good person, and deserve Heaven.

 

A lot of the comments they had there were based on why would God design us so we could/would sin? It seems to me that sinning does nothing but hurt our own souls, or other people. In the big picture, which God would see, that means we help to judge ourselves, and the people who get hurt isn't very important since life's sole purpose is judgement. Pain here is temporary pain, and what is that beside the permanence and beauty of Heaven? Besides, pain on Earth also serves to see how people respond to it - more sinning, or efforts to reduce others' pain, or giving up, or what? So why wouldn't he allow us to sin, if we are living on Earth in order to be judged?

 

On the other hand, I firmly believe that God does intervene to minimize pain; that is, allows an avalanche to kill a couple of teenagers so that a bus of schoolkids may live a couple of years down the line in another country, tradeoffs like that. I mean, since every action affects every other and we are capable of sinning, and the purpose being not to make us all infinitely happy but rather to judge us in a minimally harmful way, then the ideal method is via tradeoffs like that, right?

 

What I don't get is that if God knows each one of us, understands like no human can the things that go into every decision we make, then how can he renounce any of our decisions? If we think that we are doing the right thing, how can he judge that we are not, given that he knows exactly what knowledge we lack, and exactly what character traits make us think that what we are doing is for the best? And, even more confusing, how could he fault our definition of the best thing when he made us to be how we are, knowing the things that would happen in our life-time to shape our ideals, and again understanding everything that goes into a given decision? What exactly is he judging us on? A psychopath who murders seven people is doing so because he doesn't care about right/wrong so much as his own benefit. I'm not saying why doesn't God, all-powerful, stop this person, I'm saying why does God, who is all-knowing and understands this person's thoughts (not just knows them, but understands them as only he can), who made this person with that chemical inbalance in their head that makes them the way they are, who sees everything that has happened in their lifetime to prevent them from seeking help and whatnot, why does he judge this?

 

I am a very confused person with regard to religion, and I guess what I'm saying is that I hold multiple contradicting beliefs. I also believe that God doesn't judge us at all, but rather does all he can to minimize our pain and then accepts as many into Heaven as he can. The problem with this is that God must not be omnipotent - perhaps I don't believe he is. I mean, Satan is supposed to cause him problems, right?

 

I'm sorry for all this, it's just that I rarely find anyone with whom to discuss this sort of thing.

[Jareena Faye]

"Might offend close-minded people."

 

Isn't that a close-minded statement?

[Annael]

My understanding of the judgement of mankind is that it would be done by the Son, Jesus Christ, not by God Himself. And it's judgement of our lives, and the sins that we have committed. Not a chance for us to convince God that we are worthy of paradise.

 

Annael shrugs

 

It was well written, I have to give the author that credit. Other then that, I believe that it was posted to invite controversy and arguement. But I could be wrong. Who knows, lol.

[Falcon2001]

I agree with Peredhil on this one - I'm mildly annoyed at how nowadays Christians are automatically defined as Close-Minded and Atheists and people who don't apply to a more standard religion or are homosexual or non-conventional are defined as open-minded. I myself am definately christian and very conventional in my morals and values, but I know many "Open-minded individuals" who have just as much trouble accepting new values or looking into subjects beyond their personal beliefs as I do, if not more.

 

My ex-girlfriend was the vice-president of the Gay-Straight Alliance at our school, her mother was a lesbian and she had several bisexual friends. She was about as Open-Minded as one could get at our school, but she vehemently lambasted Christianity on a daily basis, refused to accept differences in people, and condemned all statistics published by Christians as "Biased" and "Untrustworthy" while immediately believing any statistic released by the Gay Task Force. She went so far as to discredit several reports by the University of Michigan that debunked the 10% Gay statistic because "Someone on the team must have fixed it, or fictionized it." In such, she was deliberately more close-minded than I was, a christian who was a member of the Gay-Straight Alliance for a short while of my own accord before doing some research into it.

 

Anyway though, what I'm saying here is that I'm extremely disappointed in the way the words Open and Closedminded have been twisted.

 

Oh yeah, and I thought the story was written just to be inflammatory. Good writing but ultimately wasted effort, I suppose.

[The Big Pointy One]

Hrm, well said everyone, I'm going to have to agree here. I don't know about Christianity, but this article seemed wrong.

 

(Posted by Annael:)

 

My understanding of the judgement of mankind is that it would be done by the Son, Jesus Christ, not by God Himself. And it's judgement of our lives, and the sins that we have committed. Not a chance for us to convince God that we are worthy of paradise.

The Christian the article didn't seem to sin as far as I noticed, although like I said, I don't know about Christianity. Even so, though, I'm pretty sure it's fair to say that even if you buy what God is saying in the article about not being there, I'd have to say God would be lying (which in fact would mean that it wasn't God talking... but that's another topic) because I think if one had faith in God, and that faith alone helped that person get through rough times and such, then inadvertently, God, or at least, the idea of God being there *was* there. (I apologize for not wording that better) So, really, what I'm saying is, it's the faith that counts.

 

To me, this article seems like everyone has said, just something to provoke Christians, fanatical or not. Personally the idea of an atheist trying to promote the whole 'more righteous than thou' attitude is kinda ridiculous... I'm going to stretch out on a limb here, and say that if that article was a bit more realistic, in the sense that the Christians have it right, (not implying they don't, I don't know who does ;p ) but say that if it was those two people standing in line for Judgment Day, both would be allowed into Heaven, the first for obvious reasons. The atheist, because I'm fairly certain a lot of the ideology in Christianity has to do with forgiveness. When Jesus (as mentioned above, it would not be God doing the judging) conversed with this attitude-full atheist, I think he would probably forgive him for being such a jerk. I think he would look the man in the eyes with sorrow for the fool's ignorance, and so on. I mean, I'll give the atheist credit, sticking to your beliefs, even when the mortal world has ended, that takes some serious guts, but if it was me (and I was an atheist) I'd say, "Really? I get into paradise? Even though I stuck to my own beliefs like I figured I should? Cool. Let's party!"

 

About the whole close-minded issue... aren't atheists supposed to be the most close-minded people there are? I mean, I don't want to offend any atheists, because I'm sure we have a few atheists here, Zadown for example, and I know they're smart people, with great writing talent. People are allowed to follow whatever beliefs they want, and if they want to not follow any, that's fine too. I just don't personally believe in eliminating any possibilities, until I know that they're false. (If I was to be lumped into any group, which I try to avoid, I guess you could call me Agnostic.)

 

 

 

Again, I apologize if I touched on a sensitive area for anyone, but I like voicing my opinion from time to time. On these issues, I speak from my heart, and say what I believe. I may not be the most credible person around, having very little knowledge in this area, but I speak of my own free mind. Keep in mind also that when I say certain things that may look like they're aimed at certain people, or groups of people, that I mean no disrespect to any of them. Everyone has a right to say and feel how they like, no matter how much other people may dislike it. If I was to judge anyone, it'd be on their personal character, not their beliefs. (That may sound bad too, but honestly, you need something to go on, and well, you don't have to like everyone, so long as you're civil, I say.) We are a community of many different people with many different beliefs. I'm proud to be part of such a community, because lots of the time, you don't see this kind of compassion in the real world.

[Tralla]

I think the vast majority of people in the world (including me) are close-minded, to a lesser or greater (usually greater) degree. There's just this natural part of most people that really wants to believe that they're right. I'll admit I'm worse than many - being that close-minded unbeliever, you know - but I find the trick is to realize it, deal with it, and turn the chisel on your own little wall, rather than trying to barge face-first through anyone else's. All you get trying that is a bloody nose and a big headache.

 

As for the mass generalization that atheists are the most close-minded of all, I don't really think that's true. I don't think any one group could be targeted, and I think it's a dangerous misconception to label that group is atheists. I've heard a lot of talk in my life about how atheists are just people who are too proud, headstrong, close-minded, or just plain stupid to see the Greater Truth of the world. Some atheists are as bad as any other religious zealot - blind to every belief but their own, and very quick to slander. But some people are atheist simply because they've examined other faiths and found them lacking, have trouble deciding for themselves just what to believe, or looked in their heart and found that they really just didn't believe in the whole higher power bit. Does that make then close-minded, because they've decided not to tamely follow someone else's belief system because that's what someone told them was right? No more than it makes a Christian close-minded for believing in God and Jesus Christ, or a Muslim for revering Allah. I think following your personal beliefs, especially despite the opposition you might face, makes you brave, not close-minded. It's once a person starts ignoring even the possibility of some merit in those other belief systems that they become close-minded. That could happen to anyone.

[Falcon2001]

Excellent responses, Tralla and Stick *applauds*