Canadian Election

[Lady Celes Crusader]

Ahem... to be honest, it is clear that we are heading for a Minority Governement, which is the best thing it could happen after seeing the Liberals dilapidating money with over-paid "patriotic" ads, balancing the federal budget on the back of the Provinces, and making unemployement help harldy accessible to seasonnal workers while having an Alliancist zealot as a potential Prime Minister. It is sad that such closed-minded people desires to drag parts of the population in the 19th century.

 

As for me, I do not vote for being in the side of power, I vote according to my convictions.

[Tamaranis]

Actually, I think a minority government might be a good thing...

 

If they do the "govern properly because they can't get away with evil" thing instead of the "do nothing at all because they're afraid the other parties will gang up on them, out-vote them, and bring anarchy to the country. Or something"

[Lady Celes Crusader]

I do wonder why Paul Martin decided to make elections four days after the St-Jean... when all Québécois will be pumped up against him? He does have weird ideas.

[The Big Pointy One]

With Katz's scenario running there; I think that whether you go for the 70% and likely to win, or 95% and won't win, it is a coin toss decision. If you vote for the big party, it is one vote less likely that the one you hate will gain power. If you vote for the small party, you get them one vote closer to being recognized as a potentially powerful party next time around. Either way, you've put it to good use. It becomes about what you want to do.

I realise that yes, essentially, it's about the same thing, roughly. However, the problem is that *everyone* seems to think that they should vote for who's going to win, and the democratic process just doesn't work the way it's supposed to... it's kinda pointless for me to point this out and debate it back and forth, because I'm preaching to a small crowd here, but I honestly believe if the whole country voted for who they agreed with the *MOST*, these elections would be a lot different.

 

Of course, I could throw a cog into the system and say that the elections could be fixed! Oh yes, there could be subtle vote manipulation going by secret societies! Oh yes! The black helicopters are coming! Now, I better run run, or I'll be well done...

 

(Okay, just goofing with that last bit, although you never know...)

[Degenero Angelus]

[i am not Canadian, and I do not claim to be. That said....]

 

Deg runs in waving giant green flags around the air followed by long green streamers falling from the cieling. He looks at everyone, gives them a big green campaign button, then quickly leaves.

[Peredhil]

Wonders how Deg can leave if he hasn't begun to establish roots or bud yet.

[Katzaniel]

Pokes Peredhil. Waves to Deggy.

 

Celes: He might think that the Quebecois will be less likely to vote at all? It does seem like a rather bad idea on his behalf. Anyway, can you explain what "the St-Jean" is, for those of us (like myself) who don't know but are curious?

 

BPO: The other 30% is evil, but not pure evil because that purety is something that can only be accomplished by Harper. (Just kidding - Stockwell Day did pretty good, too. )

 

In general, if we get a minority I will be happy about it. I'd much prefer a Liberal minority over a Conservative minority, but there ain't nothing anyone can do about that at this point (even if the polls are wrong) so whatever. Although, Tam, I'd like to note that either party is much more likely to do the latter.

[The Big Pointy One]

In all honesty, I think our country, let alone the world is screwed no matter who we vote for. Maybe not this term, maybe later as opposed to sooner, but I've had this whole 'impending doom' feeling for the last few years, and not just because of all the terrorist nonsense either...

[Lady Celes Crusader]

Katz: Of course! Well, St-Jean Le Baptiste (St. John The Baptist) is the St. Patron of the French Colonists and their descendants. Like Independance Day and Canada Day, it's a celebration about who we are, where we come from and then where we are heading. These leads to celebrations and happenings everywhere in the Belle Province (ie Québec) although they are more spectacular in Québec City and Montréal. It occurs every June 24.

 

About the elections, I do agree with the Pointy one when he said that poeple should vote accoring to their convinctions, not to whom will be in power.

[Nyyark]

This is really fascinating for me to read, especially since we have such a small selection of represented opinions! Being an American with this as my only glimpse it almost seems a wonder that the conservatives are in the running, and it looks to me like the NPD better watched out for those Greens, because they've been sneakin' up when the NPD wasn't looking!

 

Anyways I like the point of people not voting for something that they don't think will win, because everyone else is doing the same. Helps set me straight with who I'm vote for down here = ). (I hope, actually its more of the two I know I'm not going to vote for...)

 

Also the term of minority government struck me as particularly humorous in the context of being voted in. Seems a tad oxymoronic... But if it did get voted in, would that make the liberals the minority government then?

 

Also seems humorous to me that the Liberals want to keep things the way they are, and the Conservatives want to make changes. Sounds like both sides should do a name change to me.

 

Sorry for barging in, but I just wanted to post my appreciation for this thread, it really has made my day.

[Katzaniel]

Celes: Thank you. But come to think of it, it's only a few days before Canada Day, so isn't he being equally rude to all Canadians? (I guess in Quebec you probably celebrate both, though...) I'm curious, Celes - I must admit I don't know much about the BQ except that they support Separatism - what do you think of Gilles Duceppe and the Bloc?

 

Nyyark: Oh, don't apologize. I didn't mean to restrict this thread to Canadians at all - feel free to barge

 

Minority government - don't you have the same thing in the US? It basically means that although you got the most votes of anybody, you're still in the minority because there are 3 other parties. Unless you get some number of seats, which I think is about half. When you're a majority government, it's a lot easier to pass new laws & stuff.

 

As for the Conservatives not being in the running, I've wondered about that myself, and am beginning to conclude that people who know very much about their policies don't support them, and the Pen tends toward the sort of population who would know their policies before supporting someone. Of course, if there is anyone here who can prove that wrong, please tell me, because I would hate to be generalizing wrongly. And I would like to hear the other opinions.

 

 

Also, for the Americans reading this, I think someone should start a thread for that election as it gets nearer, as I think this sort of crash course in the politics of another country would be pretty neat to read. I'd like to know more than just the fact that Bush is running again.

[Tamaranis]

It's odd, actually. Of the people I know, almost no one supports the conservatives, and yet they seem to be ahead in the polls. I know they're not bogus polls because I've helped conduct them...

 

Anyway, the conservatives call themselves the conservatives because they're anti-abortion, seem to have a secret anti-homosexuals agenda of some sort, and generally seem to be against the sort of social movements we've come to associate with a first world country. Also, I think they hate the french.

 

They've got this odd notion that they can triple military spending or some such. Canada's military is really hurting, but I don't know where that money is supposed to come from...

 

The liberals want to push through legislation making gay marriages legal... This seems to be the only thing they're willing to actively take a role in doing, as politics is about not upsetting anyone. Strange thing to do since it upsets a lot of people.

 

Oh, they're also all about gun registry. But they can't seem to figure out what the hell they're doing with regards to that.

[The Big Pointy One]

Plus, last time I checked, the Conservatives were all about helping the rich get richer... they got the votes of the business-type people, for sures. Or something like that, anyways. I'm fairly certain they're big in Alberta, and I think in Ontario, although I could be wrong.

[Canid]

The Conservatives, I believe, were not originally so offensive in their policies. They were very pro-business and so got a lot of support. They recently merged though, with the Alliance party, which contains a large number of religious extremists. Hence the worrying changes in policy.

At the same time, the public is very angry with the Liberals over various provincial matters, publicized scandals, and the change of leadership which most people probably don't see as a good one.

Thus the Conservatives are going up in the polls; they have support from both the voters loyal to the Conservative Party and those loyal to the Alliance, and added onto that, the wave of voters repelled by the Liberal party and looking for an alternative.

 

 

About the minority government question... the States have a two party system. One wins, or the other wins. You can't have a minority. - My mother is confusing me right now by saying that the US system is not that simple and can have the equivalent of a minority despite only having two main parties, so I may be mistaken... somehow -

With the Canadian system, (just to reiterate and clarify) anyone can make a party (given they have enough support). There are 308 regions (called "ridings" or "electoral districts"), each with a candidate from each party that qualified in that riding. The winning candidate in each riding gets a seat in Parliament (they become a Member of Parliament - MP). The party with the most seats in the end is the winner of the election and their leader becomes the Prime minister. When Parliament votes on something, each MP makes one vote. Usually, all the MPs from a given party vote the same way, thus in a majority government, the party in power makes the decisions.

With a minority government, although the party in power has more seats than any other one party, it has less than half of the total seats and thus when a vote is taken, if the opposing parties all vote the same way, they can overpower the party in power.

 

*dusts off paws* I'm sure that everyone understood that perfectly. Didn't they!

Edited June 27, 2004 by Canid

[Tamaranis]

*dusts off paws* I'm sure that everyone understood that perfectly. Didn't they!

Well I did, but that's not really what we're going for here.

[Xanthus]

Ok... so much to touch on...

 

First, completely unrelated, I agree with the mother about the American minority thing. If one party controls the Presidency and the other controls the sanate, it basically swings that way.

 

Second, I'm actively supporting the NDP this election, and have been active in the Libby Davies campaign in Vancouver East, and here's why.

 

The idea that the NDP screw up when it power is a very bizzare one for me to grasp. They've never been so much as the oposition federally, and at the provincial level haven't screwed up any more then any other party. They did fuck up in BC (but so did the Liberals right after) but had an OK record in Ontario and a good one for the most part in Saskachewan. Those are the only three provences I claim enough knowledge to comment on. I've very recently seen both Conservative governments (*caugh* Harris *caugh*) and Liberal ones (*caugh* Cambell *cough*) fuck up provences far worse then any NDP government has done.

 

For financial policies, the NDP actually DOES have a real policy, and a good one too. If you want to read more about the actual policies, goto www.ndp.ca and read. The last leader, Alexa McDonough, I disagreed with alot. The new leader, Jack Layton, I love. He comes off a wonderful career of political activism, mostly dealing with helping the homeless. He also has a PhD in Politics, has written two very good books (most recent one on Canadian Politics, the older one on homelessness). He seems to have really good ideas and I haven't found too many things to disagree with him about (which is rare for me).

 

As for the Green party. I would advise that anyone who is thinking of voting for them should attend a debate first. In all the telivised local debates I've seen, the Green party memeber has been a complete idiot. They also have NO policies at all, except for the environment, so every candidate says a different thing (some have even claimed Reform-like economic policies). Even in environmental issues, Greenpeace and the other major international environmental agency (Panda, is it?) gave NDP higher marks even then the green. If you want to read Greenpeace's report, it's here http://www.greenpeace.ca/e/action/election.../ReportCard.pdf . Also, remember that the Canadian Green party has no links with any other Green parties around the world, and should not be confused for being the same thing. They just happen to share the same name (and a much more flashy name then New Democratic Party.)

 

I could say alot more, but that's enough for today. Everyone else has already done a great job of bashing Harper for me

 

Cheers,

-Xanthus

[Lady Celes Crusader]

Celes: Thank you. But come to think of it, it's only a few days before Canada Day, so isn't he being equally rude to all Canadians? (I guess in Quebec you probably celebrate both, though...) I'm curious, Celes - I must admit I don't know much about the BQ except that they support Separatism - what do you think of Gilles Duceppe and the Bloc?

First, about July first, it is celebrated but not as much as the St-Jean for the simple and good reason that lots of appartments rentals contracts ends on June 30th and the majority of movings occured during this period and that there's a lots fo people who is not attached to Canada.

 

About Gilles Duceppe and the Bloc, I think that a little bit of history will help you understand what they are. This party is created by disgruntled conservatives and liberals from Québec after the failure of the Meech accord (which would have settle down once and for all the Canadian constitutionnal problems). Yes, they are separatist/sovereignist but they decided that they should give the people who are disgruntled with the federal governement a voice. They were supposed to be there only until 1995, when the second Québec refendum occured. However, after the No barely won, the Bloc's mandate had to change and it morphs into defending Québec's interest in the Canadian parliament. Their positions most on the left side. They agreed with the Kyoto protocol, they were against the war in Irak and they think that the governement should give more power to the provinces. However, the Bloc cannot launch referendum since only the Québec provincial governement.

 

Duceppe, in my opinion, is a fine and intense politician (even some hardcore federalists thinks the same about him). He's someone who is passionnate about his believes and he had been very impressive in both debates (although, he was the most experienced of all four). About the Bloc, I admit that I share their views. The Liberals had done horrible politics in the past (the Mirabel airport fiasco, their unemployement policies, the lack of control in their spendings, etc.) while the new Conservative have way too much extremists and conservative. The NDP is a distant second choice seems that their politics have similarities with those of the Bloc but they have not much appeal to me.

 

What will happen in Québec will probably be the following:

 

- Liberals will be heavily punished. Regions with high-level of seasonal jobs are mad with the actual governement politics regarding unemployement while several others will make them pay for the sponsorship scandal.

 

- Conservatives will have some support but will don't have many seat if any. Also, lots of their politics are very unnappealing to most Québécois.

 

- NPD wont have any seat in Québec. If they have one, it'll be a surprise.

 

- The Bloc will gain more seats than in 2000 mostly because they'll benefit from the grudge against the Liberals while still having a strong support from the sovereignist/separatist. Also, the actual provincial Liberal governement is not supportive toward its federal counterpart and it's having its share of problems of its own.

 

Wheeew... in hope that I havent opened any can of worms, here it is.

[Katzaniel]

I don't think you opened any cans of worms, I am very glad that you gave a thoughtful and useful explanation. I absolutely agree about Duceppe appearing pretty good in the debates. I must admit that I didn't see all of either of them, but what I did see showed that Duceppe was calm, poised and articulate. I guess I've just had a bad opinion of the party due to the whole "Separatist" thing, and wondering why Quebec gets a party just for its interests. It's good to know that the BQ doesn't actually hold the referendums or anything, and what you said about Meech Accord reminded me about what I learned in Social 30, and realized that Quebec's interests have historically been a little different from the rest of Canada, and therefore it makes sense that there is a federal influence to see that they are not ignored.

 

Thank you, Celes. That was a comprehensive description that I'd probably have never seen otherwise.

 

Edit:

 

PS. Did everyone vote yet?

Edited June 28, 2004 by Katzaniel

[Tamaranis]

Heh, I guess we'll be finding out what went down soon enough.

 

I'm personally of the belief that a language is a language and nothing more, and it's awfully silly to form a federal party in order to look out for a specific province... but that's just me.

Edited June 28, 2004 by Tamaranis

[Lady Celes Crusader]

Katz: Thank you. I appreciate the open-mindness

 

Tamaranis: It's beyond the language, it's the culture. It's had been proven multiple times that Québecers thinks different from Ontarians, Albertans, etc. However, federalism needs to be at least heavily redefined because since, as we had seen with the healthcare money, every provinces are now constantly tucking the federal's sleeves for money that belongs in provincial competance field.

 

Now about the elections:

 

The Liberals won the elections but they'll form a minority governement. They had the worst losses in Québec, in which the Bloc gain the majority of it seats (54 out of 75) and they had significant loss in Ontario. The Tories are dissapointed, but I wish they'll learn that we're in the 21st century.

 

Well, I did vote BQ according to my convictions. However, it's not because I'm one of these "separatist" that I have a grudge against the Canadians. My grudge is against this overcentralized federal governement.

[Xanthus]

The candidate I was campaigning for (Libby Davies) won my riding by a 3-1 ratio (aka massacure) over the next highest (Sherry Chen, a LIberal). The candidate I voted for, in the riding I used to live in, also won, but just squeaking past the Liberal. I voted there because I knew LIbby had it in the bag either way.

 

So that's two ridings I was associated with. One through volenteering and one through voting, and two NDP victories. So that was nice

 

The victory party was fun, but I got there megalate thanks to working until after 11pm. I did get on the 11pm Global news briefly though.

Edited June 29, 2004 by _Xanthus_

[Katzaniel]

Well, I'm disappointed actually. I mean, why couldn't the Liberals or NDP have bagged just one more seat? There were certainly enough close calls. My own riding's Liberal candidate lost by just 120 votes to the Conservative. Which really goes to show how much a few votes can alter everything.

 

ie)

 

Liberals: 135 seats

Conservatives: 99 seats

Bloc: 54 seats

NDP: 19 seats

Independent: 1 seat

 

That gives 154 seats to the Liberals and NDP together, which means that once the speaker has been elected from the Liberal MPs, if the Conservatives and Bloc were to both oppose them on something, it would be 153 to 153 before the independent puts his/her vote in. The newspapers are barely reporting on this person, so I all I know is that they live someplace in BC. The analysts all keep talking about how the NDP has the "balance of power" and no one seems to realize that since they lost 2 seats sometime between midnight and morning (they were leading in 21 ridings when I went to bed), they don't anymore.

 

I think that needing the NDP or the Bloc or the Conservatives to agree with them was enough of a minority. I think with needing the NDP and another party, this is just a bit to unstable. We're gonna see another election pretty quick I bet.

[Canid]

The independant MP is a former Conservative.... apparently willing to consider re-joining the Conservatives.

 

I must say, I am rather dissapointed that the Green Party didn't get that one seat they were hoping for.

[Katzaniel]

Yaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgghhhh!

 

That I did not know.

 

As for a Green seat, I agree it would have been nice, but I think the Green party's support is too spread out to actually elect a seat. Actually, they were close at one point in one riding weren't they?

 

Did anyone else notice that we had leading Marxist Leninist riding at one point?

[Tyrion]

Well, my predictions were right.

Liberals won, half of Quebec voted BQ. (49% is close enough to half...)

My vote probably didn't change anything, being in an entirely French-Canadian area. I didn't look at any results, but they probably had 95% of the votes without my help.