Katzaniel Posted June 22, 2004 Report Posted June 22, 2004 This stems from the Shoutbox discussion. I'm not sure if the questions were serious or just teasing me, but I'm gonna try to answer them anyway. If you don't care, then by all means ignore this. I also need to add a disclaimer that some comments will be entirely my own opinion, and others will be flavoured by that opinion. If you disagree, feel free to debate it, it would be fantastic if this could stem a serious discussion on any of these issues, and I welcome alternate views. I just want to be careful that no one takes any of it *too* seriously, okay? I would have no ill feelings if this thread suddenly disappeared (courtesy on on-the-ball mods) because there was even one flamelike post made. That said... ...The debates are mostly about Health Care, the Liberal Sponsorship Scandal, and sounding good to Quebec, which has 1/3 of our population. The NDP want to switch to a different representational system, the Conservatives want to abolish a ton of rights (like stepping backward on abortion, the right of inmates to vote, and steps that it looks like most other parties would have soon taken on gay rights to marriage or a similar arrangement). Personally I am horrified that we are still considering making people unequal for such superficial reasons as sexual orientation, but regardless of position on the "gay issue", the Conservatives have a lot of ideas that are really scary. The Liberals are basically just trying to convince the public that what they've been doing for the last many years is good, and that if they're allowed back in, things will get even better. And of course the Bloc-Quebecois are still working toward getting Quebec to separate. (I stole that from someone, but it's awesome anyway )
Ozymandias Posted June 22, 2004 Report Posted June 22, 2004 I was actually asking because I know next to nothing about present or past activity in the Canadian government, and wanted to ask a concerned Canadian a thing or three so I *could* have a handle on the situation. {:>) That being said, what is the Liberal Sponsorship Scandal?
Tamaranis Posted June 22, 2004 Report Posted June 22, 2004 "Hey Liberal government, where'd those several billion dollars go?" "I dunno..."
Aardvark Posted June 22, 2004 Report Posted June 22, 2004 Down here, it's "Hey Liberal government, where'd those several billion dollars go?" "Those pro-government ads which are in no way a thinly veiled attempt at getting in campaign ads before we call the election later this year, thus giving us an unfair advantage on the opposition don't pay for themselves, you know."
Peredhil Posted June 22, 2004 Report Posted June 22, 2004 Getting into the Average U.S of A. citizen suit, he puts his finger on his dimple and smiles vacuously, Canada is to the NORTH! Nods emphatically have made his point, and wanders away...
Izabella Posted June 22, 2004 Report Posted June 22, 2004 The Liberal Sponsorships Scandal was basically the funneling of money, for not really good reason, into corporations cozy with the Liberal party. I voted in an advance poll on Saturday. I usually vote NDP, but a vote for the NDP this time around is a wasted ballot. So I voted for the Liberals. I can't imagine Canada with Stephen Harper at the helm. We'd be America Lite; even moreso than we already are.
Canid Posted June 22, 2004 Report Posted June 22, 2004 Canid trots in holding a ball of string in her mouth, and several sanded down sticks. She sits down and deposits the items on the ground, then removes a generously sized fresh - though dead - fish from her invisible sack (on her back). The wolf proceeds to string the fish up and poke in the sticks. She looks it over, ballances it in her lap, and sticks her paw into it. The head rotates to look at each person in the room and the fish-eyes blink. The mouth opens and shuts in a most convincing way. Canid assumes a ventriloquist grin. "Katz!" shouts the fish suddenly. It begins to tut tut. "Katz, you have forgotten a main party! The Green Party won't win.... but they ARE in every riding. Can't ignore that.... not forever." A string pulls up one fin to wave a little Green Party flag. "They are hoping to get their MP in in British Columbia." The fish smiles. I was looking at them, thinking along the lines of a protest vote... but they have a number of things going for them that suggest they could be recognized as one of the main parties in time. I liked Chrétien... I thought he handled things well, especially when it came to all the aftermath of the Twin Towers attack. If he hadn't retired, I would vote Liberal. Paul Martin, although he claims to support Chrétien's actions seems very pro-military spending. The Conservatives openly disagree with what he did - and I understand that they have some questionable opinions on the human rights issues. I know this would probably push some of you toward the Conservatives and Liberals, but being a pacifist, it really put me right off voting for either of them. As I understand it, the NDP really messed things up very quickly last time they were in power, so they aren't really an option. I largely agree with the Green Party, the only way to put them in the spotlight is to show that they have significant support. For this election, I shall be green.
Izabella Posted June 22, 2004 Report Posted June 22, 2004 But Canid, who would you rather see running Canada? Stephen Harper is little more than a religious zealot with a "vision." His vision of Canada is nowhere close to the current state of the country. I like having the right to choose, I like the fact that my best friend can marry his boyfriend, I like healthcare, and I especially like our educational systems. Kiss any socially progressive policies goodbye if Stephen Harper gets elected. Like I said, I'm not really a Liberal supporter, but if given the choice between this Canada and the one the Conservatives will bring, I choose the one I have now. In a perfect world, the NDP would smarten up about their fiscal policies and we'd have a left wing government that most people would be happy with. But the world is not perfect, the Canadian Alliance is masquerading as the Conservative Party, and the only people who can conceivably stop them are the Liberals. Like it or not, this election is a battle between the two big parties, between the left and the right. Please, please, please don't waste your vote.
Canid Posted June 22, 2004 Report Posted June 22, 2004 I refuse to vote for either of them. ...besides, it is not a waste. Any party with 2% or more of the vote collects $1.75 per vote cast for them in the election, per year. New law. As far as the Conservatives vs Liberals, either way it will be a minority. Whichever party wins will still be restricted in their movement by the other. I don't think the Conservatives will get away with all those back-steps even if they do win.
Canid Posted June 22, 2004 Report Posted June 22, 2004 ..From Canid's mum...aka the boss..... whilst I too feel that the Greens will be a force to be reckoned with in our political future, I do recognize that this fight is really between the Liberals and the "Conservalliance".....and whilst I think the Ontario Liberals are bad news, I'm willing to give the Federal Liberals a chance..... I find the Conservalliance party positively scary, so my vote is going Liberal...however the Green Party will be getting a donation from me this year.
Katzaniel Posted June 22, 2004 Author Report Posted June 22, 2004 Yes, I forgot Green because a) They're not "official", or whatever it is that gets you into the big Debate, I don't know enough about them to comment very well, except that they sound like a pretty good choice, and c) I forgot I partially agree with Izabella about not "wasting" votes, especially since some polls claim that the Conservatives are heading to a majority. But living in Saskatchewan, and lacking any good polls to predict the feeling here, I would have to look back and see that historically, SK is an NDP province. I think I would be wasting my vote to go Liberal, but as it's hard to say, I ought to just vote my heart anyway, right? As you say, the NDP have been in power and screwed it up. But can you honestly say that any party (save Green ) hasn't? Each one, whether under the same name or not (the number of times that the Right-Winged party has had to change their name is excuse enough to worry about them) has been in power and proven that they have no intentions of following up on campaign promises. I don't really want to vote Green this election; although your arguments are compelling, I do still worry about wasting the vote when the Conservatives are doing so well in the polls, so I think that my best bet right now is NDP. Although I'm teetering.
Ozymandias Posted June 22, 2004 Report Posted June 22, 2004 And I, for one, putting myself into Canadian shoes for a moment and thinking about whom I would vote for (based on the kind crash-course Canadian political education I got from the above posts) I realize that in this case, that person and/or party would probably get me very politely beaten with rather large sticks. Keep it up! This is interesting.
Tamaranis Posted June 22, 2004 Report Posted June 22, 2004 (edited) I usually vote NDP, but a vote for the NDP this time around is a wasted ballot. So I voted for the Liberals.It's a wasted vote because it's perceived as a wasted vote... no other reason. I almost wish it was illegal to conduct a poll in an attempt to predict the winner of an election... Canid Paul Martin, although he claims to support Chrétien's actions seems very pro-military spending. If only you knew how helpless our military is becoming... Canid's Mom "Conservalliance" First time I've ever heard that term... Made my day. I'll have to work out exactly how to pronounce that. As for the Green Party... I don't know much about them, but I seem to remember looking into it and finding that they had an overly simplified view of the interaction between humans and their environment, which is a bad thing for an environmental party. They had ideas like "Let's shut down a bunch of nuclear reactors, and do absolutely nothing to offset the resulting drop in the power supply! Not so much because we've assessed risks and come to the conclusion that nuclear power is worse for the environment than conventional power, but because people just don't like nuclear power!" But I think that was provincial Greens, not Federal. Maybe Federal is different. Besides, if you really care about the environment... Gas doesn't need to go down, it's *way* too cheap. That low price is encouraging people to use it. We should be paying three to four dollars a litre at least Electricity, heat, and basically every other energy or energy-like commodity are also too expensive. If they all cost twice as much, we could actually start shutting down power plants. Maybe you're ready for that Canid, but most of the country isn't. The major parties aren't focussing on the environment because that's not what voters care about. (An aside: The reason the major party's leaders appear to be pathological liars is that the voters, as a whole, want nothing so much as some nice lies to believe) Anyway, I pre-voted NDP because I think if they were ever hypothetically in power we'd see some beneficial changes. It's not as if my one vote is going to swing the election, so I cast it for the party I like the best. Edited June 22, 2004 by Tamaranis
jonathan_wolfe Posted June 23, 2004 Report Posted June 23, 2004 I like to take the words of the leader I support and just pipe up and say, I feel it is arrogant to assume that the Liberals are your only choice to stop Harper The NDP is the party that invented and championed public health care into existence in Canada fer crissakes, what more could you ask for? Holding your nose and voting for a Candidate because he's the only one who will stop Harper is nonsense, if you vote for the NDP it sends an ever stronger signal that Harper and his Campbell-Klein-Harris style of politics are not wanted in this nation Don't be afraid to rock the boat, if the liberal guy is going strong, what the heck, vote for him. But if you're in a place where the NDP is coming on strong, don't be afraid to embrace them, especially in the west, where a lot of the ridings balance on the edge between Harper and Layton I'm voting NDP, I'm ready to light a fire under the political system and elect someone who'll really go for the gusto Don't vote with your head, vote with your heart -fin
Alaeha Posted June 23, 2004 Report Posted June 23, 2004 Don't vote with your head, vote with your heart No offense intended, but people who don't use their brains tend to wind up in unpleasant situations. People who don't use their brains when they're deciding someone else's fate as well should probably not be allowed to determine their own. I hope the smily means that you were kidding, and I'm just too tired to pick it up for sure? (I'm no expert in canadian politics -- or even American politics -- but that's something I've noticed to be pretty much universal)
jonathan_wolfe Posted June 23, 2004 Report Posted June 23, 2004 Those who are using their brains are sacrificing their values for the sake of some lofty goal of "strategy" I'm trying to say, you as a person, you know what values you hold dear, and what values you should expect your politicians to hold, quit this nonsense and vote for the party that agreeds with your values and your ideals That's what voting with your heart is.
Tamaranis Posted June 23, 2004 Report Posted June 23, 2004 (edited) No, really. Vote for the NDP even if you don't think it has a chance. I've talked to so many people who really like the NDP, but don't want to vote for them because they don't think they'll win... If everyone weren't so scared to go against the current a little the NDP would probably form a government. And that doesn't just go for NDP. If Canid likes the Green Party, then that's who she should vote for. I'll say this about most politicians, they don't have an inkling as to what "nonrenewable rescource" actually means, and what the term implies. At least the Green Party has that much worked out. Edited June 23, 2004 by Tamaranis
Alaeha Posted June 23, 2004 Report Posted June 23, 2004 Those who are using their brains are recognizing that however nice it sounds to vote for those who perfectly represent your views, values, and ideals, it doesn't work. The only way that it works is in a direct democracy, where people represent themselves. Otherwise you won't find someone who matches you, and even if you could, you'd have at least half the population in your legislature. Those who use their brains are recognizing the futility of trying to get everything their way in a system designed to please the masses, and are instead trying to find the portion of the masses that is most likely to get them those things which are most important to them. Even a quarter of a loaf is better than none.
Tamaranis Posted June 23, 2004 Report Posted June 23, 2004 Hey, if you vote green, when we run out of three metals necessary for a modern nation to function, or something, you can at least say, "I told you so."
The Big Pointy One Posted June 23, 2004 Report Posted June 23, 2004 Here's my two cents, although keep in mind, I'm not as informed as I'd like to be. Basically, I'd be leaning to green, except for the fact that although I think they'd probably have good ideas for certain environmental issues, they wouldn't have much of a clue about what to do for the rest of the country. I could be wrong, but I think I'm right. Anyways, the biggest problem I have with people voting these days, is that they're so scared of 'wasting their vote'. Anyone who says this *is* wasting their vote, because they're not actually voting. They're just jumping in the ship that's taking off, and happens to be more inviting to them. How many people in our country are saying "I'd like to vote for party a, but they don't look like they have a chance at getting in, so I'll vote for party b, just to make sure party c doesn't get in." That's wrong, so so so wrong. If everyone thinks like that, it isn't even really democracy anymore. Vote for who you want to because you agree with their ideals, because you think they have the most realistic goals (big point: you have to expect that no matter who you vote for, they're gonna make promises, some of which they can't keep, however much they want to... you have to keep an eye out for the ones that look like they have the most attainable goals!) whatever you do, just don't vote for whoever you think will win. Unfortunately, I still need a crash course before I cast my vote, and the clock is ticking. And an uncast vote is the most wasted of all votes. (well, that or a vote for the communist party)
Canid Posted June 23, 2004 Report Posted June 23, 2004 Voting for the Green Party just at the moment is not voting for them to be in power - so them not knowing what they are doing is not really an issue. On the other hand I have to argue that they are not a strictly Canadian party, they are part of the government in a number of other countries, so they would not be going in blind.
Katzaniel Posted June 23, 2004 Author Report Posted June 23, 2004 Well, you guys have basically convinced me to use my vote to support the party I believe in, whether they have a chance or not. (Although this election, it is still the NDP). But as a debater at heart, I have to argue the other side for a moment: If Party A is 70% aligned with your values, Party C is 95% aligned with your values and Party B is -999999% aligned with your values, and Party A and B are neck and neck in the polls, why is it so bad to support Party A? I mean, this is about how I'd feel about each of those parties forming the government, and if I think that Party A is actually pretty decent, I don't think it's a waste to vote for them. Although, in an ideal world, there would be no polls, and no worries about "wasted votes", and this would lead to the most accurate picture of what the voters want, it's also true that no matter what you do, people will try to think of it this way. And that's why the Liberals are in power so often. Canadians are split between Left and Right, and the Center is exactly that, a center, a common ground that can try to appease both sides.
Justin Silverblade Posted June 23, 2004 Report Posted June 23, 2004 As a side note (I haven't gotten a chance to read the whole thing yet), I recently heard a report on teh news that environmental monitors gave the NDP a better "report card" for their environmental policies than the Greens. Fancy that huh? Liberal for me though - Conservatives just don't quite cut it, NDP policies just don't seem to add up (financially), and the Greens... just don't fit in enough with my own thoughts. The only concern is the scandal, of course, but with a minority government, I'm less concerned than I would be at any other time. The government will have to keep an eye on everything. - Justin Silverblade
The Big Pointy One Posted June 23, 2004 Report Posted June 23, 2004 Canid - That's good; I mean, voting for who you want to vote for soley because you want to vote them is exactly what I'm getting at. I did forget that the green party *is* indeed all over the world, and even in power in some countries, if memory serves. I guess for me to express my proper opinion I'd have to fully review their policies. Katz - What about the other 30% of party A?
Canid Posted June 24, 2004 Report Posted June 24, 2004 With Katz's scenario running there; I think that whether you go for the 70% and likely to win, or 95% and won't win, it is a coin toss decision. If you vote for the big party, it is one vote less likely that the one you hate will gain power. If you vote for the small party, you get them one vote closer to being recognized as a potentially powerful party next time around. Either way, you've put it to good use. It becomes about what you want to do.
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