Musings about feedback

[Vlad]

Basically, I'm upset about the level of feedback I'm seeing on this site. Personally, I'd much prefer if people spent more time than it takes to load the next topoic reading a poem before commenting. I don't want to single out anyone, but I will ask this of everyone - if you're not going to spend at least 5 minutes on any of my work, don't bother commenting. It's save us both some time and spare the general populace from posts like this. I don't know how many people agree with me on this issue, and quite bluntly, I don't care. If you only read it once, and want to say that you have no time, that's a different issue. Basically what this comes down to, is be respectful of people's work. As a writer I can easily tell how much time somebody puts into feedback, and sometimes I wish that I couldn't.

 

This was spawned from a look at the Banquet Room today; I was so dissapointed that I even saved a screenshot. I hope that this will be a wake up call for some people, and a pleasant reminder for others.

 

I'll rant more later, but I'm mixed between anger and dissapointment to say anything more.

[Aardvark]

I a... wait, next forum's loaded, gotta go

 

Woo for fast internet!!!

[X-Sabre]

Vlad, I think from time to time, everyone has had the same disgust with the level of feedback on the boards. I myself have complained about it a few times. People being quill-bearers still using responses like "OMG, I love this poem. That's so great. Keep up the good work." And it's usually not even done with proper english or punctuation. I've gotten about sick of feedback like that, or none at all... Unfortunately, it's things like this that make me not want to bother posting. If I wanted insight about my works, like I see a majority of people using, I'd just give the thing to my 10 yr old cousin and have her read it. I'll get the same response.

 

And with that, I'm going back to my corner.

[Wyvern]

Vlad and X-Sabre,

 

Your points are well taken, as a lack of effort in numerous responses has become apparent and is an issue that should be dealt with. You're certainly not the only members who feel this way, as others have complained about similar matters. It's apparent that something should be done about the issue.

 

The first thing that all members and honored guests should do in order to avoid such responses is to read Peredhil's "Manners and Consideration" thread posted in the Cabaret Room, paying particular attention to the third pointer in that thread. Remember that in posting responses and threads, you are catering to a wider audience than simply common internet acquaintances. We have a very large range of age groups here at the Pen, and the one kind of writing that every age can appreciate is thoughtful and considerate writing.

 

Another thing members might want to do to conquer this difficulty is to simply ask themselves: "will I be able to look back at this post in the future and be proud of what I posted?" One thing that I occasionally do is look back through my old posts by clicking on my profile and then on the "Find all posts by this member" option, which I encourage others to use for this exercise. We look happily upon all levels of writing here at the Pen, just so long as that writing has had some thought and effort put into it.

 

I realize that it's not always fun to edit posts for grammar and poorly thought out statements, but it's ultimately very rewarding. It's viewed as a sign of your dedication to the guild.

 

A third thing that should be noted: wallowing in misery over this subject is just as inconsiderate as the responses in question themselves. Difficulties should be pointed out in an intelligent and constructive manner, and should provide thoughts on how the situation can be improved as a whole. PM members whom you don't feel are providing well thought-out feedback and offer them constructive feedback on how they might be able to improve their responses. Remember that not every member will be able to provide critical feedback for a piece, as we all have different levels of writing. Dwelling on severe disappointment, however, will only intimidate people from posting and drive them away from the community.

 

One final thing, though it might not be that relevent to this issue: remember that the Pen is a place to have fun with your writing just as much as it is for recieving feedback for your works. One of the reasons that I roleplay so much is because it places a focus on writing to entertain people in the community and have fun rather than writing for personal improvement, in which others are expected to give critical feedback.

 

I would like for this thread to be moved to the Minstrel Hall where membership issues are usually discussed, but feel the decision rests on the shoulders of Vlad and X-Sabre. If you guys wouldn't mind for this to be moved there, I would be more than happy to do so. ;-)

 

Having stated all of this, Wyvern gags and rinses his mouth out with a long shot of Bruteweiser, generally despising technical posts like the one he just wrote... ;-p

[Gwaihir]

Completely agreed. In the end, one of the most important things is to be thinking of each other's feelings. Posting carelessly suggests a lack of regard for others. A too-harsh post does too.

[Vlad]

Gwai - Fight fire with fire. Or don't, because all you get is one huge burning mass of pain. Oops.

 

X-Sabre - You summed up what I was going to continue ranting about pretty well.

 

Wyvern - I do not want this moved to the Minstrel Hall because there is enough behind those closed doors already. In fact, there are two threads about this very topic in the Courtyard. The are, of course, Mira's On Feedback Content and Valdar's Feedback and Commentary. Why you would want to hide it farther than the issue has already surfaced is beyond me. Actually, I have a theory, but it's more appropriate for the Minstrel Hall which you seem to love.

 

(And now, folks... back to your previously scheduled rant)

 

The biggest problem that I see is that people don't listen to advice that people tend to give. And those that do listen... well you're just preaching to the chior, then. The most dissapointing thing is that numerous times feedback has been discussed, yet I have not seen a noticable difference in the quality of it.

 

Finally, people can put the requested level of feedback with the work they write. Or more generally, they can put it in their profile. I looked at a few poems with feedback, and the level did not coincide with the requested one. (I only speak for poems, because that's what I fell most qualified to rant about)

 

Ok, I'm done.

[Peredhil]

The biggest problem that I see is that people don't listen to advice that people tend to give. And those that do listen... well you're just preaching to the choir, then. The most disappointing thing is that numerous times feedback has been discussed, yet I have not seen a noticeable difference in the quality of it.

choir - Although it phonetically sounds as if the "i" should be first, it actually is an "oi" vowel combination.

disappointing - Only one "s" in disappointing. You'd think the "i" would be made a long "i" when followed by the single "s" and a vowel, but it's another of those cases where exceptions apply in English.

noticeable - In this case, the "e" is required. English is such an odd language.

 

I love these rants. Keep up the good work! (That was a nifty encapsulation X-Sabre).

 

More seriously, I suppose much of this depends on what you want from the Pen community. I've always envisioned the Pen as a place for starting writers and poets, a place where highly intelligence and creative people, who in my experience tend to become extremely wounded by the rest of the world, could come together, associate, and heal - with the excuse of writing. So my feedback needs are met by simple acknowledgements such as the ones you hate. Having had highly educated parents, and numerous college classes on the subjects, it has only been Cyril who has managed to give me an insight on one of my works which I hadn't already considered - as an over-intellectualized personality, I tend to seek a rawer form in my poetry.

While I recognize that many, including Wyvern from his beginning with us, have wanted a far more qualitative feedback system and higher standards, one of the things that has always set the Pen apart in my mind is its emphasis on heart over head - acknowledging and respecting the validity of a person's feelings over the rules of spelling and grammar.

I'll not argue that spelling and grammar are irrelevant, citing such greats as e. e. cummings and other who've ignored spelling and grammar to produce genius. For one thing - they were masters who knew the rules so well that they knew how and when to break them. There is a need for spelling, grammar, and yes, more qualitative feedback on the skills and construction of words.

And there are many many sites out there that provide those skills. There are a number of writing places where for pay or for free, you can post a word and have it dissected letter by letter in myriad ways. Feel free to explore them, and bring back the techniques that you find there to share with the Pen. But do try to leave the egos, the viciousness, and the rest of the odd mental games which so frequently crop up in those sites behind.

Like I say - this is just my view on the issue, again. Wyvern, Yui, Zool, Jechum, Cyril - the list of those who have spoken for high writing standards, and try to set the example on the issue just reels on and on (somewhat like this post! ) That to which it really comes down is what the voting membership votes into being. Which is why Wyvern suggested moving this. The problem isn't that there aren't threads (as you've pointed out). The problem is that either the voting membership is apathetic - or that they like it the way it is and are ignoring a very vocal minority. Without discussion, it is really impossible to tell.

 

Unlike the responsible Elders who've spoken, I have no vote, and so feel free to write endlessly whereever I find something to spark my interest.

 

Geriatrically ramblingly Ancient,

 

Peredhil

[Falcon2001]

I, too, am a little annoyed by commentary or lack thereof - BUT seeing as how I rarely comment on other people's poetry, I can't exactly complain much, can I?

 

My last two poems in the banquet hall are still sitting there at 0 replies each, and realistically I suppose this is a bit of cruel irony. I should really start replying to more - and I'm guilty myself of only saying 'Great poem, keep up the good work' but often it's because I don't want to analyze something good...oftentimes that ruins it for me - Lord of the Flies anyone? After we got done taking that book apart in english I hated it with a passion.

 

Either way I suppose I'll start to write better responses to other people's work, and I encourage everyone else to do so, too.

 

Well, it is finals week for the high schools, at least around here, so that could have to do with less posting lately.

[Yuki Kokoro]

Personally I would suggest that in the poem’s thread you ask for critical commentary. I think mentioning anything in particular you feel that you could improve on or are unsure about would help greatly. I know that direction would help me a lot with feedback. Do you want to know what mood you created? How well it flowed? How much personality the speaker developed? Or do you want technical responses, like whether your word choice fit or what people thought of your line and stanza breaks?

 

The other thing that I think a lot of people are uncomfortable with is suggestions. No one really wants to come in and change a poet’s work unless they know the poet is willing to change it. Many people don't want to come off sounding like they know how to write someone else's poem better than it's been written. So I would also say that if you're looking for suggestions, ask. That way people know they aren't stepping on your toes.

 

Lastly, I know that sometimes I would be able to comment so much more clearly on a poem if I had some kind of statement saying: "This is what I was trying to express: _____" Did I succeed? I realize some people are probably going to think it's lame that I'm asking a poet to explain a poem after they've written it, but it's hard to say whether a poem is effective when you're not sure what it's trying to be effective at. That way you get responses from the people you may need feedback from most, the people who didn’t understand.

 

Often the problem is not time or lack of interest, people simply don't know what to say. Giving feedback is hard for many people, especially with poetry. Some of us feel comfortable analyzing and breaking down poems, some of us are simply not at that level. I'd like to think that some of my posts are helpful, others I know I'm only expressing what I thought of it after reading.

 

Frequently I don't know where else to go because I don't think I understand what the poet is getting at well enough to give criticism. Poetry is such an opinion based art that at times I feel a poem is so far out of the zone I usually enjoy that I don't feel qualified to evaluate it, so I'm likely to say something simple.

 

However, I believe that simple responses do have their place. I think of The Pen as a place to come for support as well as to improve your writing and there are some things that people just don't want to be torn apart. They only want to know if their poetry is enjoyed.

 

Giving good feedback is a learned skill and requesting specifics will hopefully help people give you thorough commentary. Also, it will help separate those that are still trying to decide what they want their poetry to become from those who want to know if they've succeeded.

 

Sorry this got so long, but I hope some of it can be helpful in the future.

[jonathan_wolfe]

Just a thought, but for those who view but can't make the time to post a reply (too afraid to analyze, not enough time to write a reply, or the reply would be short)

 

A kinda push button feedback mechanism would help give those who view, but don't post, an method of feedback. Kinda like a bunch of anonymous people in a crowd looking at the author and giving them a thumbs up

 

Just a thought.

[Valdar and Astralis]

I'm sort of two minded on this issue. On one hand, it's irritating when you get 'I like it! it's great!' feedback when what you really wanted was proper, sit down feedback.

On the other hand, it _does_ get painful if your work that you stuck months into dosn't get _any_ feedback. Not even a cricket. It's even more discouraging than getting "I like it" feedback for some people.

Now mind you, I dont think there's _anything_ wrong with either of the schools of thought. But as it stands, there is little, if any way to tell who wants what kind of feedback.

 

To that end, I reccomend that we activate Skynet and give control of our nuclear weapons to. . .er. I mean, we activate the Feedback and Commentarynet and give it control of our feedback levels.